No pressure building

[TheBob]

I am having issues trying to get my well pump to build up pressure. System is about 5 years old, Goulds 7GPM 1 horse pump, 220 foot deep well, pump setting at about 200 feet, feeding thru a pitless adapter. Well head is about 460 feet downhill from the house, and has one check valve just outside the pitless adapter, and one right before the pressure gauge. Pump is protected by a Littelfuse pump saver. Static water level last week was at 29 feet. so should have plenty of water.

Pulled the pump two weeks back to check things, wires are good, had pump tested, it's pumping and cycling as it should. Installed new pipe as kinked the pipe bringing it up, so all that should be good. Tuesday pump only came up to about 34 PSI on the guage, and tripped the pumpsaver. We left town until Wednesday night, got the pump to build pressure back up to 50 PSI last night. Today, can only get to about 34 PSI and pumpsaver trips. Seems like it is taking too long to build ANY pressure. Pulled the pump and hose out of the pitless adapter and had the wife kick the pump on, had good water flow at the pitless.

Not seeing any water leaks on the line, but it is buried deep in several places so might not.

I've checked voltage at the control box, all good. I am wondering if a check valve could be plugged up, specifically the one at the pitless adapter.

Any other suggestions?

 

[Bannerman]

has one check valve just outside the pitless adapter, and one right before the pressure gauge.

The only check valve in the system, should be the one directly within the submersible pump. If you want an additional check valve for redundancy, one maybe threaded directly to the pump's outlet connection, before the connection to the drop pipe.

I suspect you have a leak in the supply line between the pit less adaptor, and the check valve at the pressure gauge. This leak will be most likely due to ongoing repeated water hammer resulting from the use of multiple check valves.

As the pressure gauge check valve will interfere with diagnosis, suggest first either removing that check valve, or remove that CV's internal gate poppet. To prevent interference from the home's downstream plumbing, fully close the main shutoff valve after the pressure tank/pressure switch, then activate the pump until either the pressure switch shuts off the pump at the correct cut-out pressure, or until pressure does not build further.

Once the pump is shut off, observe if the pressure gauge begins to immediately drop. With the supply valve closed to the home's plumbing, and with the pressure gauge check valve no longer operational, assuming your pressure tank remains good, any pressure loss should be a result of leakage within the pipe before the pressure gauge, but after the check valve at the pit less adaptor.

While repairing the leak or replacing the buried supply line, also remove the CV located at the pitiless adaptor.

The Littelfuse pump saver is designed to shut off the pump when either an over current, under load (ie: dry well), overvoltage, or under voltage condition is detected. It should automatically restart after a user adjustable delay. Some Pump Savers will also shut down the pump if rapid cycling is detected.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[TheBob]

Thanks, will start digging tomorrow. Will first dig up and remove the check valve at the pitless adapter, then remove the check valve at the pressure switch, then see what happens. I really hate to have to dig up that 460 feet of line to find the leak!

 

[Fitter30]

Need to disconnect piping at well head. Hook up gauge to the pump side to measure the discharge pressure. Do you have all the numbers off the pump? They we can see what the shut off pressure is and compare it with the.pump curve. 460' + 29' + 24' ( the 2 checks) = 513' ÷ 2.31 = 222 lbs not counting the pipe head. What is your pipe size, material and schedule from pump to house?

 

[TheBob]

Update, and to respond to Fitter, I removed the check valve at the T to the pressure tank, Pumped water to about 34 psi before pump saver cut out. Used a shut off valve as a temporary check valve so we would have some water Friday night. Saturday I dug up the pitless check valve and removed it. When I cut the line at the pitless, had quite a bit of water flow out from the supply line to the house, indicates leak is between pump and house, I think.

Fitter, the line to the house is Schedule 40 1.25" PVC. Inside the well is 205 feet of 1" black pipe. Numbers from the pump? It;s a Goulds 7CS10422C, so 7 GPM, I horse motor. What else can I provide?

Also, since I removed the check valve at the pitless, son in law asked me to put a spigot valve there that would allow him to attach leak detection system, He works for a "trench less leak detection" company locally, so he may come out today and help find the leak. In the meantime, I am thinking.... if I close the valve at the pressure tank and let the water leak out where it is already leaking. Then go down to the spigot, open it, and measure the amount of water that comes out, I can roughly estimate how many feet of line were still holding water, and measure back up the line to the approximate area of the leak?

Not going to get very invasive today as it's Sunday and the local hardware stores are closed, nearest is 60 miles either direction.

 

[Fitter30]

Black pipe in the well you would have rusty water most of the time. Pipe is only good for 150 lbs. Here's shut off pressure 88 lbs for 200'. 88 lbs = 203'

 

[Reach4]

Well head is about 460 feet downhill from the house

if I close the valve at the pressure tank and let the water leak out where it is already leaking. Then go down to the spigot, open it, and measure the amount of water that comes out, I can roughly estimate how many feet of line were still holding water, and measure back up the line to the approximate area of the leak?

I like that. How much of that is altitude change vs horizontal distance?

Fitter, the line to the house is Schedule 40 1.25" PVC.

A long PVC pipe should have had features to handle thermal expansion and contraction.

He works for a "trench less leak detection" company locally, so he may come out today and help find the leak.

Now that's handy! If you repair the leak, add thermal expansion/contraction consideration at the spot of the repair at least.

 

[TheBob]

well head elevation is right at1860 feet, the house is roughly 1950 feet, with the horizontal distance about 460 feet away.

Started by draining the residual water in the line from the well head to the house pressure tank. Collected about 35 gallons of water, so that divided by the .064 to determine how many feet up the hill the leak would be, comes out at about 568 feet. That would indicate the leak is in/at the house but haven't seen any evidence of water leakage. Son in law did come out with the leak detection setup. Added hydrogen gas at the spigot at the well head, said the gas would naturally flow uphill towards the house, so pumped it to about 44 psi. Using the "sniffer", we waited until the gas had reached the spigot at the tank. Started the sniffing in the house, no leaks detected. Started at the wall outside about where the line would enter the house, and the alarm went off on the sniffer. When the wind would quit blowing (doesn't happen up here often) you could hear the gas escaping with your bare ears. So the leak is where the feed line is under the footing and the slab, compound in that we now have front wrap around porch that extends 13.5 feet out from the wall. House is actually a "barndominium" that we built as a weekend getaway. Then wife decided if we sold the house in town, and moved up here full time, she could retire. So the slab that is the porch was added after the water lines and electric lines were put in. Making it extremely difficult to repair at the leak, in other words, I'm not digging up my porch.

So dug up the existing feed line outside the porch area, dug a new trench around the porch and brought the line up outside the wall of the shop, and went thru wall and cut into the feed line there. I will have to build a small "dog house" to place over the line where it exits the ground to protect it from weather, as that wall faces west and north, and we have seen below zero temps up here the last three years.

Thanks to all for all the suggestions and recommendations.

 

[TheBob]

I do have one question for Fitter,,,,,why does the black pipe mean I will have rusty water most of the time? Black pipe is pretty much the standard drop pipe used in our area for wells...

We do have county water at the road that was finished about a year after we moved in. Two issues with it is that is about 1700 linear feet to the road, with a 400' rise in elevation total with another small hill still between the house and road. And we are about the same elevation as the county water towers, the county water engineer said we would be lucky to have 10 to 20 PSI so would have to boost it.

 

[Bannerman]

,why does the black pipe mean I will have rusty water most of the time? Black pipe is pretty much the standard drop pipe used in our area for wells

You didn't define the pipe material.

I suspect Fitter is understanding 'Black pipe' to refer to Black Iron pipe, which would rapidly result in a rusty water issue.

I expect you are actually referring to 'poly pipe' which is polyethylene pipe which is usually Black in colour. It is poly pipe that is often utilized for a well's drop pipe, and also the supply line between the well and the house.

With any pipe with a long run distance, provision needs to be made for expansion/contraction. With poly pipe, this is often easily accomplished by snaking the line in a side-to-side manner within the trench prior to backfilling with soft sand prior to full burial to the surface.

 

[Reach4]

In plumbing, "black pipe" refers to steel pipe that is painted black. It is historically used in houses for natural gas piping. For steel drop pipes, those are usually galvanized pipe. Galvanized drop pipe is for special use, such as really deep wells.

For use with wells serviced with well hoist trucks, schedule 80 or schedule 120 PVC would be the norm. The common length is 20 ft. The "sticks" of pipe are usually connected together with couplings, that can be stainless steel or schedule 120 or schedule 160 PVC. There are also PVC drop pipes that have their own coupling method built in. Polyethylene pipe does not need a hoist usually. Those with a hoist truck prefer the PVC both because it is easier with the truck, but also because it is not usually suitable for DIY.

 

[Bannerman]

When I cut the line at the pitless, had quite a bit of water flow out from the supply line to the house, indicates leak is between pump and house, I think.

Doing this, will likely have resulted in some soil and contaminated water becoming drawn into the pipe from where the leak was located.

The earlier advice to 1st remove the CV located at the pressure gauge, was intended to ensure the supply line remained filled up to the leak location, and under 0 psi and higher pressure, to attempt to prevent contaminants from entering.

Now that contamination has likely occurred, recommend sanitizing the supply line and house plumbing, utilizing a chlorine solution such as non-scented laundry bleach, 1/2-gallon mixed with 3-gallons water. The solution will become progressively weaker due to further dilution while travelling through the supply line and house plumbing.

As you installed a spigot at the well head, you maybe able to shut off power to the pump, drain the pressure tank, and then pump the full amount of chlorine solution into the supply line through the well head spigot. Activating the well pump briefly every 5-minutes will then slowly push the chlorine solution though the line, while providing sufficient contact time to sanitize each short section of supply line. As the solution will become progressively weaker, the contact time should be increased somewhat, especially once the solution enters the house plumbing.

Open each of the home's cold faucet's until chlorine is detected, then close each faucet and let the chlorine remain within the house plumbing for ~30-minutes, after which, open each faucet to flush-out the chlorine.

Hot water will also provide a sanitizing effect when the temperature is above 140 F. Suggest temporarily setting the water heater thermostat to 160 or higher, to increase the likelihood for the temperature at the bottom of the WH tank will be above 140. Once the WH has been given sufficient time to increase the temperature of all water contained, open each hot faucet until the excessively hot water begins to exit each faucet, then reduce to flow rate to a trickle to allow the still flowing hot water to sanitize the hot water piping to each. Return the temperature to the usual setting (typically 120-125F), but beware, the hot water may continue to be hotter than usual until all of the water within the tank has been replaced with cooler water.

 

[TheBob]

all good, my definition of "black pipe" is the poly pipe, so that was my mistake. All good now with the well, just wish I had had time to fill in the trenches I dug before the rain hit. 2 inches of rain today, but thankfully no bad storms, unlike eastern Arkansas and the Mississippi and Tennesse area....prayers out for those peeps....