A very low volume well , adding a storage tank (?) Novice!

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Valveman

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as for the actual pump, i am planning to have it outside the tank. it won't be quite at the level of the bottom of the tank, but will be well below the 'full' level. It looks like folks here like Gould pumps, so i thought i'd look at what they make. It has to push the water 20 ft up and 40 ft out, and deliver at better than 5gpm (a single hard running faucet worth) at that height. It won't be pulling the water more than a couple feet up, at most. I'm planning to set the pressure at 50.
Setting the pressure at 50 PSI is the same as 115' of head. So, you need to add the 115' to the 20' up and add a little friction loss for the distance to the total head the pump needs to supply. I would get a pump that could do the flow needed at about 150' of head. Also, with a jet pump to get 50 PSI you need a 40/60 pressure switch to be about to set the CSV at 50 PSI constant, and then the pump needs to be able to build a max pressure of 70 to work with a 40/60 switch.
 

Work4latte

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the pump i'm looking at is this one:
Goulds J5SH 1/2HP Shallow Water Well Jet Pump 115/230V
and i'll set it up to run at 230v. I think it will be sufficient? or do you think i need to do some more research?
I wasn't aware there is a relationship between psi and head - but the tables that describe the pump performance do account for psi, so if i read them right this should do it.
 

Work4latte

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i've been considering using a continuous-duty solenoid valve hooked up to the float valve to control the inlet to the tank. This would allow the main pump at the well to provide water for plants whenever i want, and save me from having to cut into and potentially redo that big 220v pump circuit. That isn't an approach that's talked about much here, are there drawbacks that just make it not work?

I'm also assuming that the jet pump off the storage tank will need its own circuit. With standard 200A house service, do i need to start to worry about having too much stuff running at the same time? (water heater, dryer, well pump, and wall oven are the biggies, all 220v)
 

Reach4

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How much current does your well pump draw? You may be able to put a float switch in series with one of the hot lines to control the power to the well pump. Your well pump could easily be a 1/2 hp submersible pump, but you can get float switches that can handle more than that. A relay/contactor can certainly be used.

What you propose will not be a problem for a 200 amp service.

What is it that you think hasn't been talked about much? Having a tank fed by a low volume well, and having a separate pressure pump, has been talked about a pretty good amount. Having a well pump, filling a tank, controlled by a float switch has been discussed pretty well too.
 
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Work4latte

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this is the only post i found that talked at all about filling the tank with a valve: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....fill-up-storage-tank.97561/page-2#post-702250 and it didn't talk about advantages / disadvantages of that approach. it seemed like everything else covered using the float to switch the well pump on and off.

it's likely that i dont know the proper words to use to get a successful search. asking for more detail / thoughts often gets people to use the words i'm missing, and i can then follow it up with better searching.
 

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OK, yes, I did misunderstand. So why not have a float switch control the pump? Are you thinking to have your existing pressure pump and pressure switch still connected to the well pump. Well pump pressure tank would always control pressure, and a float switch would control a solenoid valve. So the pair would function like a stock tank float valve, but you would have more control of the deadband.

So the advantage to you is that you could also pull water right from the well when it was available, and would not have to manually turn a switch on or off.
 

Work4latte

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OK, yes, I did misunderstand. So why not have a float switch control the pump? Are you thinking to have your existing pressure pump and pressure switch still connected to the well pump. Well pump pressure tank would always control pressure, and a float switch would control a solenoid valve. So the pair would function like a stock tank float valve, but you would have more control of the deadband.

So the advantage to you is that you could also pull water right from the well when it was available, and would not have to manually turn a switch on or off.
i just didn't want to mess with that big 8g wire that goes all through the basement, out the opposite side of the house, and a ways underground to the pumphouse. The storage tank is about 30 ft from the well (and i still had to dig to make a perfectly flat spot on solid subsoil to place it, without huge branches overhead but mostly shaded so i'm not drinking hot water in summer. yay shovels.) so i'd be adding a lot of wire if i wired in the float from the well, and cutting that big wire and having to redo part of it if i put the float switch in where the pump wire exits the house (which is pretty near the storage tank). Plus i like to water the plants with straight well water, so being able to do that whenever seemed good.

I think my concern about the solenoid valve is longevity - is that something that would tend to fail a lot? or is it a dependable solution?
 

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Some higher HP pumps can use a "heavy duty" control box. That includes a relay to power the pump and is controlled by the pressure switch etc, so the switch carries a lot less power.

But an external relay can certainly do the job.
 

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Some higher HP pumps can use a "heavy duty" control box. That includes a relay to power the pump and is controlled by the pressure switch etc, so the switch carries a lot less power.

But an external relay can certainly do the job.
please tell me more? how would i recognize that kind of a control box? or , how would the external relay work? when you say a relay, i think you mean that the float switch would control a circuit that controlled a switch in the pump circuit, so the float switch would not really be in line with the pump - it controls a switch that is in line with the pump. Would you mind linking me an example of the hardware that would do that? I think i get the concepts but this isn't something i've done before.
 

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You can get a "Deluxe" control box with a magnetic relay for 1.5 HP or larger. Or, you can add a magnetic relay before any control box. You still need to run wires from the float switch, they are just smaller wires with a relay than without.

The best way to fill a cistern when there are no wires is to use a float switch to activate a solenoid valve. Or, you can use a non-modulating float valve. But then the pump will still need a pressure tank and pressure switch so the pump comes on when the float valve or solenoid valve is filling the cistern and turns the pump off when the valve is closed.

LOW YIELD WELL_and storage with two PK1A one pipe.jpg
 

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You can get a "Deluxe" control box with a magnetic relay for 1.5 HP or larger. Or, you can add a magnetic relay before any control box. You still need to run wires from the float switch, they are just smaller wires with a relay than without.

The best way to fill a cistern when there are no wires is to use a float switch to activate a solenoid valve. Or, you can use a non-modulating float valve. But then the pump will still need a pressure tank and pressure switch so the pump comes on when the float valve or solenoid valve is filling the cistern and turns the pump off when the valve is closed.

View attachment 83925
that looks like a version of what i was thinking. I just wanted to skip the 24v transformer, and run the solenoid valve on 110. So there's no major drawback to doing it this way?
 

Valveman

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A 24V sprinkler valve is all you need. 110V is more expensive and not as safe in the water. A little plug in transformer is an easy way to go from 110V to 24V. Looks like a cell phone charger.
 

Work4latte

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And here we find where i went off track - when i read '24v' i assumed 24v dc. that's not what those valves are, they are 24v AC, and the transformer they need is pretty simple and basic. thanks for setting me straight there.
 

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still working on a workable plan for all this, and starting to accumulate parts. I have the pressure system ordered (pk1a kit), have a valve for the intake (drinking water rated solenoid valve) , have a workable plan for getting power and plumbing to the tank, a place to put the tank, and the 2 float valves that will control filling the tank and shutting down the pump if the tank is empty.
Then i went to work on finding a pump. The goulds pump is so very expensive, i started looking for cheaper options and reading more on the forums. I like the thought of putting in a submersible well pump, and there were some good schematics posted that showed that, and videos of how to make a flow jacket for it. All good and understood.
But.... (you knew that was coming, didn't you?) then i got to thinking about the whole thing of eventually needing to service the pump, and pitless adapters (not cheap!) and flexible pipe.

I know nothing about flexible pipe. are we talking about flexible pvc? or something else? what sort of fittings are used? how flexible is 'flexible'? it's going to be pressurized, so will that cause issues? would it work to use a longer flexible pipe on the pump->bulkhead and just fish the pump up off the bottom of the tank when i need to? Remember that my tank is only about 4ft deep.

on the tank i have, the bulkhead fitting is on the opposite side as the manhole cover. my concern is that if i plumb over to the manhole cover and put on a pitless fitting, when i go to separate the pitless fitting the leverage will just break the pipe off at the bulkhead (8 ft away). How much force does it take to separate a pitless fitting?
 

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Work4latte

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here's where i'm at
storage tank.jpg

the drawing isn't exact - scale is off (my tank is bigger) the pitless is below the access hatch, not across the tank, the check valve is right on top of the pump not outside the tank. Overall though, i think it represents the plumbing parts ok.
the 'bunch of old stuff' is a later project - there's a lot to clean up and move there, and i don't want to take it all on at once. once the tank is in and working, i can disconnect all that stuff and work on getting it set up how i want it.
The one thing i am worried about is if the pitless adapter will be watertight. it's meant to go in a 6in diameter well casing, not my 8ft diameter tank.

What is missing in this picture is a way to turn off the tank pump if the water level gets too low. I was planning to put in a 'pump down' float switch and wire it directly into the circuit for that pump. The manufacturer says that the pump doesn't need a 'starter box' . the pump is 220v and has 3 wires (it's a hallmark pump). How do i wire this into the float switch?
 

Reach4

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How do i wire this into the float switch? I think you are saying this is a 2-wire pump plus ground.
Float switch would be in series with one of the hots feeding the pump presuming the float switch had sufficient electrical capacity.
 

Bannerman

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For the well pump to supply water directly to the house, there will need to be a pressure tank and pressure switch to control the well pump operation. Since you plan to remove the well pump's PT & PS, then you will need to also remove the house supply pipe section shown directly below the cistern.
 
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