A hot water radiator system - plumber in Washington, DC area?

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Guy in DC

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I'm having a heck of a time finding a heating contractor in Washington DC area who will 1) work on a hot water radiator system and 2)return my phone calls.

It looks like there is an air in the system. Also, the pressure relief valve open sometimes.

Does anyone have a recommendation? Thanks in advance.



Hot water heating systems
 

Dana

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The two symptoms may be related, and there might be a pretty easy DIY fix. To get water up to the second floor radiators with the boiler in the basement takes about 12-15psi at the boiler. The pressure relief valves on most residential boilers open up at 30 psi.

If the expansion tank loses it's air charge the pressure goes up when the system is hot, possibly opening up the relief valve, then when the system cools the pressure drops, sometimes to the point that radiators and vents at the upper floors can be at negative pressure, sucking air into the system.

Some pictures of the expansion tank and near-boiler plumbing would make it easier to be more specific about how to deal with it.
 

Guy in DC

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Thanks so much.

Attached are pictures of my heating system. Please let me know if it is sufficient.

I have three level house (basement, first and second). Last year, when the bathrooms were remodeled on the second floor, radiators at the second floors were drained. Then, they were filled back. Since then, baseboards on the first floor that are operated by one zone (I have three zone system), produce a strange noise when the heating begins (noise of water that flows through the pipes). I assume there is air in the system but bleeding doesn't help at all (no air coming out).

Since last week, I have an issue with the relief pressure valve that opens. After I had posted this topic, I noticed that once the valve operating the zone for baseboards opens and heating starts, then the relief pressure valve opens a few seconds later. Not always.

There is also some air in the expansion tank. Not much and not always.

I appreciate your advise!
 

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Dana

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That type of expansion tank has an internal diaphragm separating the water connection end from the air-valve connection end:

Thermal-expansion.jpg



To operate correctly the initial air charge before the system is pressurized has to be pumped up to the target system pressure + 1 to 3 psi. If the initial air pressure is too low there isn't enough volume for the water to expand into as the water in the system expands due to heating up.

Assuming the expansion tank is properly sized for the system's water volume & temperature swing (not always a good assumption, the system pressure as measured at the boiler needs to be 3 psi + 0.433 x the vertical distance in feet between the pressure gauge and the top of the tallest radiator and the top floor. The expansion tank is usually 2-3' (sometimes more) above the boiler's pressure gauge, which adds 1-2 psi to the expansion tank's pressure requirement, and adding 1-2 psi to that ensures that the majority of the tank volume becomes useful expansion volume.

So let's say the boiler's pressure gauge is 7' below the first floor, and you have 2 more floors above that at 10' per, and a 3' tall radiator above that, adding up to 30'. So the minimum pressure (measured at the boiler) required to push water to the top radiator is 0.433 x ( 7' + 10' + 10' + 3')= 13 psi. There needs to be another ~3 psi to overcome the pressure differences induced by pumping, so the boiler needs to be set to 13 psi + 3 psi = 16 psi, not less, but also not much more.

Let's assume the midpoint on the tank is 4' above the pressure gauge on the boiler, which adds 4' x 0.433= nearly 2 psi to the minimum tank pressure, but add another 1 psi for good measure for 3 psi to ensure maximal useful volume, but not much more, or it's shock-absorber effect is diminished. That means the pre-charge on the tank for maximal useful expansion space is 16 psi + 3 psi = 19psi (for a system that's charged to 16psi at the boiler.)

While it's easier to get the pre-charge correct when the tank is disconnected from the system, with zero back pressure on the water side, since you have no isolating valve between the tank & air scoop you can do it iteratively. Start by calculating the system's target pressure + tank pressures. With the system at idle (warm but not maximum temp boiler, no pumping) if the system pressure is reading higher than the target pressure, drain water out of the system (there is usually a drain port at the boiler, if not, carefully use the pressure relief valve), until the system is at the target pressure.

Then, pump air into the tank's schraeder valve up to the calculated tank pressure.

Check the system pressure again- if there was a lot of water in the expansion tank the pressure may have bumped up. Drain more water as necessary to hit the target pressure, then check the pressure at the tank, pump in more air, as necessary.

Repeat.

In a very few cycles pumping air into the tank has little or no effect on the system pressure, which is where it want's to be.

Many systems will have a pressure reducing "auto-fill" valve to automatically add water to the system when the system pressure drops below the pre-set on the auto-fill. If that valve is set improperly or it's valve seats are worn allowing excess water into the system the system pressure can rise over time. There is usually an isolating valve between the auto-fill and the potable supply. Once the system is set to the proper pressure, it's usually a good idea to close the isolating valve to prevent seepage. If the system's pressure drops over several days/weeks it's an indication that it's losing water somewhere, which is something to be investigated. You can cross ( or burn :) ) that bridge if & when you come to it.

If the diaphragm in the tank is leaking the tank will become water logged. The tank will "thud" rather than ring when tapped on the air-end of the tank, and water will come out when the center pin on the air valve is pressed. The only solution there is to replace the tank (properly pre-charging it before installing onto the plumbing, of course.)
 

Guy in DC

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Thanks so much. It is very helpful.

I warmed up the system and my reads are as follow: the boiler pressure is 15-16 psi, the expansion tank 14 psi (some water was coming out). What should I do now? Should I pump the air into the expansion tank up to 19 psi? Could I use a regular the car air pump? Replace the expansion tank?
 

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If water is coming out of the air valve the tank almost has a leak and needs replacement. The air in the system likely came from the expansion tank. Pumping air into it will likely keep the pressure relief valve from opening in the very short term, but that wouldn't "fix" the problem it's it's slowly seeping water into the air side (and conversely), with much of the tank-charge air eventually ending up in the system. The air scoop and vent the tank is hanging from slowly removes air over time, but as the diaphragm leak gets worse it won't/can't keep up.

If the system has been working fine with that tank prior to the tank failure, replacing it with the same size & model would be fine. Turn the power off to the boiler and wait for things to cool before pulling the old one, and isolate it with valves to the extent possible (it doesn't look like there are easy nearby isolation valves in the system) when making the swap. Hopefully you won't have to drain much of the system to deal with this. Let the system cool to where it's not a hazard before swapping out the tank. (If you can hold your hand on the pipe or air-scoop comfortably it's cool enough.) If you have the new one pre-charged and prepped you may be able to spin off the old one and get the new one on quickly without losing tons of water or adding a cubic mile of air, but expect to get wet, and be prepared to mop up.

If so inclined, installing a ball valve between the tank and the air scoop saves a lot of draining/air bleeding/purging time when swapping out the next one. (They don't last forever, but you can usually get more than a decade out of them.)
 

Guy in DC

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Thanks again for you help!

So I will buy the same model of the expansion tank since it worked well for at least 10 years:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-...MI-bXSzbP_5gIVDYiGCh3MxQ-kEAQYASABEgJcIPD_BwE
How should I have get one, which is already pre-charge? Do you I need to ask them to charge to appropriate psi?

A ball valve - do I need just a regular one from Home Depot?

To avoid water drainage during replacement, could I close any valves in my system? would it help at all? Please see attached pix.
 

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Guy in DC

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This morning, I've checked the pressure in the expansion tank 14 psi and read 19 psi, no water. The pressure valve relief valve did open.
 

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Unless you let water out to lower the system pressure after pumping up the tank to 19psi it doesn't add much air, and doesn't create much expansion room. If you just pump the tank to 19psi, the system pressure will start at 19psi- it has to be bled down to create more space. When it bleeds down the tank pressure will drop, and has to be pumped up again. It may take 2-3 iterations to where pumping up the tank no longer raises the system pressure- at that point you know the tank's volume is mostly-air.

The thing with the funny lever arm and bell shaped housing is the auto fill. Before opening up the system close the red & or handled gate valves below/above it to guarantee it doesn't keep adding water when the system is open:

index.php


The valve circled in yellow looks like something to adjust the boiler/system bypass branch flow, to prevent too-cool water from causing destructive condensation within the boiler when the radiation isn't hot enough.

index.php


See Figure 11, p.18 of the manual.

Closing the red gate valve above and to the left of that balancing will keep water from back-flowing down the supply side of the system. It's not clear from the pics if there is a corresponding valve somewhere on the return side (in this case, the side with the green pump) that would block flow toward the tank & boiler from the radiation return. If there is, close that valve too and you won't end up having to re-fill the entire system.

It looks like you have zone valves on the return sides, in which case with the power off they should all be closed, keeping the water from draining back to he boiler. The silver box marked "main" in this picture is a zone valve, with a gate valve above it. Close the gate valve(s) too, just to be sure.

index.php


Be sure to either remember or put tape or some other tag on every valve you close so you don't drive yourself crazy figuring out which ones you need to restore before firing the system back up.
 

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Dana,

You said in referring to the valve circled in yellow:
The valve circled in yellow looks like something to adjust the boiler/system bypass branch flow, to prevent too-cool water from causing destructive condensation within the boiler when the radiation isn't hot enough.

Should it be closed or open when the boiler operates? Currently, it has been closed. Thanks.
 

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Guy in DC

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I understand now. The bypass valve was closed.
I followed the instruction and adjusted the water at inlet at 130F (with valve slightly - maybe two and half turn - open).
It is tough to keep it at 120F. Is it OK? What should it be kept at 120F?
 

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I understand now. The bypass valve was closed.
I followed the instruction and adjusted the water at inlet at 130F (with valve slightly - maybe two and half turn - open).
It is tough to keep it at 120F. Is it OK? What should it be kept at 120F?

To avoid corrosive exhaust condensation on the heat exchangers it's important to not chronically run most gas boilers with entering water temperature (EWT) below 130F, but with finned water tube heat exchangers it can often be a bit lower. It's also sometimes necessary to keep the in-to-out temperature differnence within spec. On p.16 of the manual they have:

5B By-pass Piping The following information and suggestions are made on by-pass piping as it affects the temperature rise at the boiler. A boiler temperature rise must be taken on all JV boiler installations. If the temperature rise exceeds 30°F (17°C) at full rate, it is an indication that the boiler is not receiving adequate water flow. Check the pump for any obstruction, replace the pump with a larger size where necessary, or install a system by-pass as indicated in Figures 10 and 11. A full sized, 1¼" bypass with balancing valves is strongly recommended for all systems, and required when: 1) the boiler is installed without primarysecondary piping in a multiple zone system; 2) when the return water temperature can be expected to be lower than 120°F (44°C); or 3) whenever the system piping on the outlet side of the boiler may allow reduced flow through the heat exchanger, causing excessive temperature rise..

So it looks like this boiler will tolerate an EWT of 120F.

On p.31 of the manual it states:

1. Target Min - The boiler target minimum is the point at which the stages will start to turn on to maintain a minimum water temperature. The Boiler Minimum water temperature is 150 deg F, regardless of other calculated targets.

The 150F is the minimum boiler temperature, not the minimum EWT, which in most systems would be high enough to prevent the EWT from dropping below 130F, but in high mass radiation it may need more bypass flow to keep the EWT above the minimum 120F.

A 120F minimum EWT is not enough to prevent condensation in the venting & flues, which can be an issue with oversized terra cotta lined chimneys. Many/most installations need a right-sized (for the boiler's BTU rate) metal flue liner to keep mildly acidic exhaust from slowly breaking down the mortar in masonry chimneys. This a much slower process with natural gas exhaust than with #2 oil exhaust, but it's something to be aware of if it's vented into a masonry chimney.
 

Guy in DC

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Dear Dana,
I didn't have too much confidence in me so I called a plumber from a reputable company in the area. He has already been three times at my house but the initial problem persists. His first diagnose was a pump disfunction so he replaced it. The pressure relief valve continued to open. Today, he changed this valve itself - the problem persists. He also said that it might be problem with a zone valve. I asked about the expansion tank - he said that it works well, but he didn't spend anytime on it.

He also said that the bypass pipe should be closed. "This is what we do now" as he stated. I keep it open.

The bottom line is that I've spent $1000 already and problem is not solved.

So I will follow what you recommended.

My question is about pre-charged tank. Based on your calculation above, I assume that the pressure should be around 19 psi. The pre-charged tanks are at 12 psi https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-...MI-bXSzbP_5gIVDYiGCh3MxQ-kEAQYASABEgJcIPD_BwE
should I add more air into it before installation?
 

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My question is about pre-charged tank. Based on your calculation above, I assume that the pressure should be around 19 psi. The pre-charged tanks are at 12 psi https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-...MI-bXSzbP_5gIVDYiGCh3MxQ-kEAQYASABEgJcIPD_BwE
should I add more air into it before installation?

Yes- pump up the tank to the correct pressure before installing it, which saves some steps on the fine-tuning. Measure the actual vertical distances from the pressure gauge to the topmost part of the system, and try to be pretty accurate- more than a couple feet of error starts to matter. Don't assume the 19 psi used in the example is the number that is correct for your system.
 

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Dana

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The total water volume in the system and the anticipated temperature swings are what determines the expansion tank sizing, not the BTU output capacity of the boiler.

Have you calculated the system's water volume?
 

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Again, it's the water volume in the system not the heat rate (neither horsepower, watts, or BTU/hr) and the difference in average system temperature from idle to max temperature that determines the size requirements of the expansion tank.

Water expands with temperature, and it's not compressible. The total volume that is displaced with a rise in temperature is different if it's 10 gallons vs 200 gallons, and it's the total volume of expansion that the tank has to accommodate. It doesn't matter if the heat source raising the system's temperature is candle or a 1000 BTU/hr oil burner- only temperature rise and system volume matter, not the heat rate.
 
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