Buying a used Ultramax

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Lazynofoodbum

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A man is offering two Ultramax toilets, used, on Craigslist, he is asking 125.00 each. I may bite if he accepts 100.00 each, if I am advised to by you good folks.

He states the model nombers as being 845 & 853, but has only one photo in his ad. They are not ADA models - he states that in the ad - but beyond this, what can I tell about them using his model numbers? Assuming not cracked or scratched, what is the worst case scenario, dollar-wise, to bring one up to top-notch working condition? One model better than the other? Worth the money? Thanks for any help, sorry about the many questions......Steve.
 

WJcandee

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The 854 is elongated; the 853 is round.

One caution: they may be the Ultimate as opposed to the Ultramax. Both look basically the same, but the Ultimate has the Power Gravity flush while the Ultramax has the Gmax flush.

The difference between PG and GMax is basically that the Power Gravity is quieter; both have a 3" flush valve, but the GMax sets the water level in the tank higher and then only uses a portion of it to do the flush. The Power Gravity starts with the water level lower, and uses more of it. The GMax thus gives a more forceful push of the water into the bowl (the extra water adds head pressure on the flush valve), but uses the same amount of water. This may improve flush performance a smidge, but I have to say that the Power Gravity is extremely impressive. I noticed Ultimates in use in the restrooms of hotels I visited in Las Vegas and New Orleans recently. It makes so little noise and accomplishes its task with so little drama that it surprises most people. You push the flush handle and it goes "slurp, gurgle" and the waste is gone.

When you realize that a good gravity toilet *pulls* the waste from the bowl rather than pushing it, a spectacularly-designed trapway like the Power Gravity one means that the louder rush of water into the bowl of the GMax is at least partly for show. When all toilet manufacturers were responding to the public's outrage over the horrible performance of their 1.6gpf toilets, they took advantage a bit of the public's mistaken perception that there wasn't enough "force" to the flush and thus tried to create more drama in the bowl, while the little Ultimate was just quietly slurping away the waste in huge volumes.

It is telling that Toto still sells the Ultimate, years after it came out with the Ultramax and then the Ultramax II.

(The model number for the Ultimate in elongated is, for example, MS854114, whereas the model number for the Ultramax will be MS854114S or the Eco-Ultramax will be MS854114E. The "114" pertains to the seat, the excellent slow-close SS114 seat, that is included when you buy a one-piece Toto. Only the first part of the model number is stamped in the tank, usually.)

As to making them function assuming the porcelain is perfect, you are unlikely to need a new flush valve, but if you did a new one including a new flapper is $25-30 and readily-available. If all you need is a new flapper, the right one is the Korky 2021BP flapper, which is less than $10 at Walmart online. If all you need is a new fill valve, the right one is the Korky 528MP MaxPerformance fill valve, which can be had for $10.47 at Home Depot. In the unlikely event that you need a new flush handle (very unlikely), it costs about $30. So, absolute worst-case is $25 flush valve and flapper plus $10.50 fill valve plus $30 trip lever is $65.50, but most likely all you need is a new flapper. Once you put that $10.50 fill valve in there, all you need is a $4 part to rehabilitate it every 5-10 years, which is one reason to pick the Korky, who makes the official Toto replacement fill valve.
 
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Lazynofoodbum

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The 854 is elongated; the 853 is round.

One caution: they may be the Ultimate as opposed to the Ultramax. Both look basically the same, but the Ultimate has the Power Gravity flush while the Ultramax has the Gmax flush.

The difference between PG and GMax is basically that the Power Gravity is quieter; both have a 3" flush valve, but the GMax sets the water level in the tank higher and then only uses a portion of it to do the flush. The Power Gravity starts with the water level lower, and uses more of it. The GMax thus gives a more forceful push of the water into the bowl (the extra water adds head pressure on the flush valve), but uses the same amount of water. This may improve flush performance a smidge, but I have to say that the Power Gravity is extremely impressive. I noticed Ultimates in use in the restrooms of hotels I visited in Las Vegas and New Orleans recently. It makes so little noise and accomplishes its task with so little drama that it surprises most people. You push the flush handle and it goes "slurp, gurgle" and the waste is gone.

When you realize that a good gravity toilet *pulls* the waste from the bowl rather than pushing it, a spectacularly-designed trapway like the Power Gravity one means that the louder rush of water into the bowl of the GMax is at least partly for show. When all toilet manufacturers were responding to the public's outrage over the horrible performance of their 1.6gpf toilets, they took advantage a bit of the public's mistaken perception that there wasn't enough "force" to the flush and thus tried to create more drama in the bowl, while the little Ultimate was just quietly slurping away the waste in huge volumes.

It is telling that Toto still sells the Ultimate, years after it came out with the Ultramax and then the Ultramax II.

(The model number for the Ultimate in elongated is, for example, MS854114, whereas the model number for the Ultramax will be MS854114S or the Eco-Ultramax will be MS854114E. The "114" pertains to the seat, the excellent slow-close SS114 seat, that is included when you buy a one-piece Toto. Only the first part of the model number is stamped in the tank, usually.)

As to making them function assuming the porcelain is perfect, you are unlikely to need a new flush valve, but if you did a new one including a new flapper is $25-30 and readily-available. If all you need is a new flapper, the right one is the Korky 2021BP flapper, which is less than $10 at Walmart online. If all you need is a new fill valve, the right one is the Korky 528MP MaxPerformance fill valve, which can be had for $10.47 at Home Depot. In the unlikely event that you need a new flush handle (very unlikely), it costs about $30. So, absolute worst-case is $25 flush valve and flapper plus $10.50 fill valve plus $30 trip lever is $65.50, but most likely all you need is a new flapper. Once you put that $10.50 fill valve in there, all you need is a $4 part to rehabilitate it every 5-10 years, which is one reason to pick the Korky, who makes the official Toto replacement fill valve.
 

Lazynofoodbum

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Sorry, haven't got the hang of this forum yet. I guess it may be a typo, but he said they were both Ultramaxs' but gave the model numbers as 853 and 845 (854?), using only one photo. I will ontact him to request xlarification, and additional photos.

In your opinion, are they worth buying? I do not mind replacing parts, assuming it won't break the bank. I will be installing an S300 Washlet (elongated) on it. Is 100.00 about right to offer, even allowing for some parts replacements? All input is much appreciated.
 

Wallijonn

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Are you willing to lose out on a bargain if he says "firm"? What do they cost new? Now multiply by two.

Have you read the reviews here?
 

Lazynofoodbum

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Are you willing to lose out on a bargain if he says "firm"? What do they cost new? Now multiply by two.

Have you read the reviews here?
I did read some reciews, which is why I was excited by the opportunity, but it is a moot point now. Just spoke to the owner, a plumber himself, and he accepted my offer of 100.00, but on further discussion he informed me it would not work in my intended application, i.e., using an adapter to convert my current 14" rough-in toilet to the Totos 12". He said I would need a skirted toiled to accomodate the adapter. Valve can be re-worked when the walls are down to their studs. He reccomended a Carlyle II, which I also have a line on for a New unused one for 300.00 i will pursue that one. Thanks for input.
 

WJcandee

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$100 is a good price, given that the Ultramax is a street price of about $450 new. That's also a good price you gave for the Carlyle II, given that $540 would be a fair price for a new one.

The gentleman is right that you need a skirted toilet to use the adapter. We have a Carlyle II, and it's a great toilet. The only other thought I have is that the Ultimate will happily fit on a 14" rough-in, although you'll have an extra 2" of space behind the toilet, which may or may not be a big deal in your particular bathroom. I have a good 2" behind my toilet in the City, but it's not noticeable, particularly given that it has a protruding medicine cabinet/mirror above it.

It sounds like you're dealing with an honest guy, so I would be very tempted by the significant price savings on an excellent unit. And if he's a plumber he knows the difference between the Ultimate and the Ultramax. Personally, I would be perfectly happy with an Ultimate, particularly for $100.

If the valve location is an issue, take a look at the Dahl Skirted Toilet Installation kit, which gives you a superb-quality Dahl mini-ball-valve mounted on a 90-degree L that you just fit over the existing stub-out. That moves the valve and the little quarter-turn handle on the Dahl unit to the left, so you may not need to move the pipe. They're a little tricky to get, but some places have them online if you can't find one at a good local plumbing supply place. They also make kits for installing your Washlet. http://www.dahlvalve.com/products/mini-ball-valves/skirted-toilet-kits.php

Let us know how this all turns out. And we like photos of installations, too.
 

Lazynofoodbum

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$100 is a good price, given that the Ultramax is a street price of about $450 new. That's also a good price you gave for the Carlyle II, given that $540 would be a fair price for a new one.

The gentleman is right that you need a skirted toilet to use the adapter. We have a Carlyle II, and it's a great toilet. The only other thought I have is that the Ultimate will happily fit on a 14" rough-in, although you'll have an extra 2" of space behind the toilet, which may or may not be a big deal in your particular bathroom. I have a good 2" behind my toilet in the City, but it's not noticeable, particularly given that it has a protruding medicine cabinet/mirror above it.

It sounds like you're dealing with an honest guy, so I would be very tempted by the significant price savings on an excellent unit. And if he's a plumber he knows the difference between the Ultimate and the Ultramax. Personally, I would be perfectly happy with an Ultimate, particularly for $100.

Let us know how this all turns out. And we like photos of installations, too.
Thank you, WJ, it will be springtime, after the winter rainy season is up, when we remodel the bathroom. I have purchased a
$100 is a good price, given that the Ultramax is a street price of about $450 new. That's also a good price you gave for the Carlyle II, given that $540 would be a fair price for a new one.

The gentleman is right that you need a skirted toilet to use the adapter. We have a Carlyle II, and it's a great toilet. The only other thought I have is that the Ultimate will happily fit on a 14" rough-in, although you'll have an extra 2" of space behind the toilet, which may or may not be a big deal in your particular bathroom. I have a good 2" behind my toilet in the City, but it's not noticeable, particularly given that it has a protruding medicine cabinet/mirror above it.

It sounds like you're dealing with an honest guy, so I would be very tempted by the significant price savings on an excellent unit. And if he's a plumber he knows the difference between the Ultimate and the Ultramax. Personally, I would be perfectly happy with an Ultimate, particularly for $100.

If the valve location is an issue, take a look at the Dahl Skirted Toilet Installation kit, which gives you a superb-quality Dahl mini-ball-valve mounted on a 90-degree L that you just fit over the existing stub-out. That moves the valve and the little quarter-turn handle on the Dahl unit to the left, so you may not need to move the pipe. They're a little tricky to get, but some places have them online if you can't find one at a good local plumbing supply place. They also make kits for installing your Washlet. http://www.dahlvalve.com/products/mini-ball-valves/skirted-toilet-kits.php

Let us know how this all turns out. And we like photos of installations, too.
Wj, I will try to post photos, but it will be summertime before the remodel is complete. We will wait till the rainy season ends here in the central coast of California becore beginning.

The 2" is needed, that is why the skirted model and adapter. I will have an elderly mother-in-law living with us by years end. We are prepping our only bathroom to accomodate her future needs, so plenty of space for either a walker or wheelchair is needed. I purchased a two-year old S300 washlet,elongated, for 200 bucks to go on the new Toto, whatever modelit may be. The one I want to purchase is not ADA compliant, I believe, but should be fine. I am learning as I go, pinching every penny, while still trying to use the highest quality products I can afford, so Toto fits the description. Thanks to all for their input!
 

WJcandee

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Well, God bless you for taking on that responsibility, and for trying to do it at the highest affordable quality. It is indeed amazing what kind of true bargains one can find by doing some research and legwork; I don't usually feel good about a purchase until I make that kind of effort. Even if it takes a few months, let us know how it turns out and come back with any questions. The folks here love to help people who are trying to learn, and the base of knowledge and experience here is incredible. I am always amazed at what the members here know, how happy they are to share, and how much they like hearing about or seeing a good result from the time that they put in to make this forum so informative.
 

Lazynofoodbum

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$100 is a good price, given that the Ultramax is a street price of about $450 new. That's also a good price you gave for the Carlyle II, given that $540 would be a fair price for a new one.

The gentleman is right that you need a skirted toilet to use the adapter. We have a Carlyle II, and it's a great toilet. The only other thought I have is that the Ultimate will happily fit on a 14" rough-in, although you'll have an extra 2" of space behind the toilet, which may or may not be a big deal in your particular bathroom. I have a good 2" behind my toilet in the City, but it's not noticeable, particularly given that it has a protruding medicine cabinet/mirror above it.

It sounds like you're dealing with an honest guy, so I would be very tempted by the significant price savings on an excellent unit. And if he's a plumber he knows the difference between the Ultimate and the Ultramax. Personally, I would be perfectly happy with an Ultimate, particularly for $100.

If the valve location is an issue, take a look at the Dahl Skirted Toilet Installation kit, which gives you a superb-quality Dahl mini-ball-valve mounted on a 90-degree L that you just fit over the existing stub-out. That moves the valve and the little quarter-turn handle on the Dahl unit to the left, so you may not need to move the pipe. They're a little tricky to get, but some places have them online if you can't find one at a good local plumbing supply place. They also make kits for installing your Washlet. http://www.dahlvalve.com/products/mini-ball-valves/skirted-toilet-kits.php

Let us know how this all turns out. And we like photos of installations, too.
Wj, I am going to pick up my new carlyle II next weekend. I am happy, that for a total of 550.00, I will have a new toilet and a two year old S300 Washlet, both for less than the cost of one of them!

I looked at the Dahl ballvalve washlet kit. Can you tell me, does that allow hooking up both the toilet and the washlet? I won't mind moving the valve, as we will be stripping everything to the studs, and I will be doing all the electrical work. Thanks!
 

Terry

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The Washlet and the toilet use the same cold water supply. The Washlet will come with the tee that splits the water.
6" off center for the cold supply at the wall should work on the Carlyle II
 

Lazynofoodbum

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The Washlet and the toilet use the same cold water supply. The Washlet will come with the tee that splits the water.
6" off center for the cold supply at the wall should work on the Carlyle II
Thanks, Terry. What will the Unifit adapter cost me, if you know? Do I buy direct from Toto?
 
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