Wiring new pump

[2stupid2fixit]

The old 240 volt pump was at the end of 275 feet of 2 conductor wire on a double pole 20 amp breaker. No ground.

The new pump has two 120 volt legs and a ground.

I imagine to PROPERLY do the installation correctly, the wire from the house to the well casing needs to be replaced also so that there is a ground going back to the ground bus in the breaker panel.

I don't want to dig up and replace the cable that goes from the house to the well case.

So is it acceptable to tie the pump's ground to the metal well casing considering that the casing is made of metal and so it is essentially a really long grounding spike anyway?

Does anyone recommend that I change the standard Double pole 20 amp breaker to a GFCI version?

Am I over thinking this since the water in the well grounds all of it anyway?

 

[Reach4]

The old 240 volt pump was at the end of 275 feet of 2 conductor wire on a double pole 20 amp breaker. No ground.

The new pump has two 120 volt legs and a ground.

I imagine to PROPERLY do the installation correctly, the wire from the house to the well casing needs to be replaced also so that there is a ground going back to the ground bus in the breaker panel.

I don't want to dig up and replace the cable that goes from the house to the well case.

The old wiring is grandfathered in.

So is it acceptable to tie the pump's ground to the metal well casing considering that the casing is made of metal and so it is essentially a really long grounding spike anyway?

I don't know if that would be more acceptable than just taping off the ground wire down the well. I am not a pro.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[2stupid2fixit]

The old wiring is grandfathered in.


I don't know if that would be more acceptable than just taping off the ground wire down the well. I am not a pro.

I found the answer thanks to the local well driller's electrician. Lots of ways would WORK, but if want to sell the house the current National Electric Code would apply, and to be code compliant theres lots of redundancy and added expense. The way it was explained to me was this:

The well casing is an electrode since it's indeed conductive metal, penetrates the earth well and houses a motor powered from the house. The well's submerisible pump is a groundable motor. To be compliant the motor's ground lead needs to be tied back to the ground bus of the panel. The breaker needs to be GFCI. The well casing needs to be tied back via separate conductor to the house's ground bus also so the system is considered bonded for instances of ground faults.

So basically I was told that my system as I replaced it was 100% fine and would work and would prob be safe like the old one was for 40 years... but to be code compliant I have to yank up and replace the pump's two wire only power cable and replace it with 12/3 with ground so that I have two complete and separate paths back to the panel that have grounds to every metal piece of the system, i.e. the pressure tank, pressure switch, bottle of grandma's piss in the fridge, tank tee, straps to the water heater, and then its compliant.

I get it that we need grounds but holy this is grounding the ground to the ground of the ground. Kinda like a Helmet Protector Protector Protector. This is probably a rant that belongs in the electricians forum.

Right now I'm happy it works. Makes me wonder how everyone lived with just two lugs dumping 240 volts to the pump with no grounds for 40 years. Hope no one gets cooked in the shower if something goes wrong.

 

[Reach4]

I found the answer thanks to the local well driller's electrician. Lots of ways would WORK, but if want to sell the house the current National Electric Code would apply

Who told you this? That is not normal.

 

[Sarg]

Is 12 gauge wire adequate for a 240 volt pump ? ( I thought it would be 10 gauge with a minimum 25 amp breaker )

 

[Reach4]

Is 12 gauge wire adequate for a 240 volt pump ? ( I thought it would be 10 gauge with a minimum 25 amp breaker )

Depends. What is the new pump?

 

[Sarg]

Asking about the OP's installation.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

Is 12 gauge wire adequate for a 240 volt pump ? ( I thought it would be 10 gauge with a minimum 25 amp breaker )

It's a 240 volt pump, the data sticker on the motor says 4.6 amps. I measured it and it does not draw more than 3 and a half amps even from a dead stop. I suppose as the pump ages that number will increase. The wire coming from the pumps motor looks to be stranded 16 gauge at best.
I could probably get away with an even smaller breaker than the 20 amps the instructions call for. The buried wire that the old pump used is what the new pump is connected to, and that's 10 gauge solid.

 

[Aaroninnh]

/

It's a 240 volt pump, the data sticker on the motor says 4.6 amps. I measured it and it does not draw more than 3 and a half amps even from a dead stop. I suppose as the pump ages that number will increase. The wire coming from the pumps motor looks to be stranded 16 gauge at best.
I could probably get away with an even smaller breaker than the 20 amps the instructions call for. The buried wire that the old pump used is what the new pump is connected to, and that's 10 gauge solid.

How many HP is the pump? If the FLA of the motor is 4.6amps (assume thats whats on the sticker) then its probably around a half horse. If so, 15A breaker would be fine at 240V.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

/

How many HP is the pump? If the FLA of the motor is 4.6amps (assume thats whats on the sticker) then its probably around a half horse. If so, 15A breaker would be fine at 240V.

The sticker says its 3/4 horsepower pump on the new hallmark pump but I doubt it really is, because its a hallmark pump. It was $150 bucks worth of pump for the precious water into my house, it replaced a goulds pump made in Illionois or Michigagan in 1979 using a franklin electric motor. I would be willing to stake on a roulette spin that the goulds 1/2 horse pump spins up water at a full horse and this hallmark pump says its 3/4 horse but probably really spins water at what a quarter horsepower pump would do. The short answer is I think a horse is a bad unit of measure. But hey what do I know? Made in the USA lost its manufacturing standards over the last 40 years. I measured the power draw and the new (hallmark) pump only pulls close to 2.9 amps when the pump was fast asleep. Dead stop and start the pump it doesnt pull over 3 amps. That's great for low power consumption if you are concerned about your electric bill but I have this funny feeling that the pump is going to quit working sooner rather than later. The goulds half horse pump i yanked out was all iron and stainless steel. this new hallmark thing that i dropped 200 feet looked good but its made of mostly plastic and hopes and dreams and hollow promises. Time shall tell. Let's see what the current draw is 6 months from now, since I am in Northeast Pennsylvania and our draw water has lots of iron and only God knows floating in it. You are correct though, I could probably even put in a 10A breaker and never reset a trip.

 

[Valveman]

What pump do you have? That pump is probably not made to work from that depth, and the pump is deadheaded, not pumping any water, which is why the amps are low.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

What pump do you have? That pump is probably not made to work from that depth, and the pump is deadheaded, not pumping any water, which is why the amps are low.

It's a Hallmark MA0459X-14A. It is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. The pump works great, it gives me a steady 52 psi of push (i am estimating) and it has no problem pumping up the pressure tank to a 60psi cut-off. it is .25 horsepower more than the 1/2 hp goulds it was replacing but it weighs only a fraction of what the goulds did. I called the people at hallmark to figure out which pump to buy and he said dont go by hp. He told me to measure the distance to the house, the distance to water, the total well depth, the tank size and the pipe size, etc. When I gave him all those numbers the guy at hallmark said to get the 230v 3/4 horse 3 and a half inch size one. I read online reviews on this particular pump and they are all over the place. It's love/hate and dont know any better in the middle. Some people claim its the best thing they ever bought and others say the cardboard box its shipped in is worth much more than the actual pump is. I think the ones that are praising it work for hallmark and the ones that hate it work for the other pump maker. Anyhow... Since I put it in, it has not given me an issue but remember, it was only $150 so I don't trust it for 5 minutes let alone 5 years. My whole point behind this post is that when I sell the house, an electrician has to sign off on the electrical inspection and to be code compliant its gonna cost me hundreds more even though I used all the wiring that was originally there which met code so many years ago. $150 for the pump I PUT IN MYSELF and $1000 for work to get a piece of paper that says "nice". I know codes get updated for our own good.... its just that i think this one excessive. I can tell that I am getting old because I find my self complaining that things were better back in the day.

 

[Reach4]

My whole point behind this post is that if I want to sell the house, an electrician has to sign off on the electrical inspection and to be code compliant

Who told you that everything must be brought up to current electrical code? Did your electrician say that?

 

[Valveman]

The old 240 volt pump was at the end of 275 feet of 2 conductor wire on a double pole 20 amp breaker.

That pump will go deeper than I thought it would. It has a max head of 270'. It takes 138' of head to make the 60 PSI needed for shut off. So, if the water in the well gets any deeper than 132', that pump will not be able to get to 60 and shut off. That is what I am worried about and thinking it is why the amps are low. If the water in the well is anywhere close to 132' deep, there won't be enough flow to keep the pump cool.

But if it is working now, good for you. You can't hardly not try that pump for such a low price. You could buy 3-4 of those for what a name brand pump cost. I am with Reach, probably won't matter on the third wire.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

That pump will go deeper than I thought it would. It has a max head of 270'. It takes 138' of head to make the 60 PSI needed for shut off. So, if the water in the well gets any deeper than 132', that pump will not be able to get to 60 and shut off. That is what I am worried about and thinking it is why the amps are low. If the water in the well is anywhere close to 132' deep, there won't be enough flow to keep the pump cool.

But if it is working now, good for you. You can't hardly not try that pump for such a low price. You could buy 3-4 of those for what a name brand pump cost. I am with Reach, probably won't matter on the third wire.

I messed up on that post. The well is dug 250 feet deep. The pump hangs on poly 200 feet. When I take off the cap and look down, water sits at around 48 feet from the surface. The level at where the water is in the case has not changed since october.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

and the hallmark pump is working like a champ... I guess we will know better when it craps out. The goulds was down there for something around 40 years.