Which is a better boiler. Peerless or Burnham

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Tom Sawyer

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Another question for Burners Carlin or Beckett?
burnham pv8h3 or Peeress wbv4?
Not switching to gas

A good burner man will tell you it doesn't really matter although you left Riello out and they make a damn fine burner too. I'll get flack for this but I've never been a fan of ever Burnham or peerless unless it's for steam. Look into Biase buderus or lochnivar.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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Nuclear is given short shift but the lack of new nuclear power can't be blamed on science or economics as much as the irrational anti-nuke crowd. Government is the biggest challenge we face in dealing with our energy issues. You can't put everyone on electric heat and expect PV to carry the load in this generation. If everything that does work kills us, then we should make plans for a early funeral since our life spans have nearly doubled since the industrial revolution much more than comfort will be given up as we shun the things that used to work for us.

Evolution is more sustainable than revolution.

You know I like using combi water heaters for smaller loads and grew up near the Bock plant in Wisconsin.
 

Dana

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There is no single solution to grid sources. The argument that PV can't sustain the whole grid on their own is as much of a straw man as the argument that nukes can't ramp quickly enough to track load. Both are true, but so what? All resources on the grid back up the other resources.

Getting the mix right for grid reliability at the lowest cost to ratepayers is a constantly moving target. But that target is moving away from, not toward large centralized power plants.

The nuclear biz has been heavily subsidized since day-1, and that's part of the problem. The reactor types of the existing nuclear fleet in the US were driven by the US Navy's and the technology needs, and the needs of the weapons industry. Even third generation pressurized water reactors are too large, lumpy and expensive to make economic sense in a competitive grid environment. The fast breeder reactors that have pretty much gone by the wayside didn't make sense unless you were planning to build a lot of particular types of weapons. These reactors designs were adapted for electric power, but far from ideal for that task. There are better (and cheaper) ways.

The inherently melt-down proof designs such as molten salt or pebble bed reactors that operate at atmospheric pressure would make a lot more sense since the don't require large containment structures or redundant backup cooling & power systems, and they scale down in sized reasonably, and may eventually be commercialized if it turns out they actually make economic sense (with or without subsidy.)

But the economics of power production can change in the amount of time it takes to design & build a pressurized water reactor, even without excessive governmental red tape. The whole centralized power plant business takes a lot more grid infrastructure to support than distributed generation (such as PV or cogens), and at the pace things are currently changing in the power biz the large centralized powerplant model is going to go away. The lack of new nuclear of the large scale PWR type very much IS an economic issue, since it require a very large bet into a very uncertain market future, which is why no investment banks will touch it without Federal guarantees. The WPPS bond failure had nothing to do with "...irrational anti-nuke crowd...", and everything to do with the size of the bet in a very fickle electricity market future, and the difficulty of managing construction projects of that scale & complexity. It's still a fickle market, but even more so now than 35 years ago, now that the age of cheap scalable renewables have arrived, and can be economically installed on both sides of the meter. The central powerplant model is destined to go away.

That's not just my semi-literate opinion, that's the recently articulated opinion of the CEO of National Grid, the largest utility in the UK (which also owns & operates a big chunk of the New England grid.) That's also the opinion of the leadership at NRG, the largest merchant power generation company in the US, which has a lot of nukes & coal plants in their current portfolio. NRG is currently in the middle of divorcing the renewables end of their business from the traditional powerplant end, in part because they are competing with themselves, and in part because they don't want their high growth renewables biz to get sucked down the drain by the stranded assets of the rest of the company, should the evolution happen faster than they planned for.

In a market where kwh sales are flat or falling, and the price of both small-scale PV and grid storage if falling an order of magnitude or more faster, betting on there being a market for the output of even the Vogtle plant over the design lifecycle of that plant on which the financial model was based is starting to look like a dubious proposition. It's currently slated to go online in 2019-2020, well beyond the original target date of 2016, but the notion that it will be needed to keep the lights on in 2040 is anything but certain. From a levelized cost point of view it will be the most expensive power on the grid in that time frame. Even batteries + renewables will be cheaper at the ratepayer's end than Vogtle + grid charges by about 2030, with fairly conservative learning curve assumptions.

In most locations in the US currently a gigawatt of distributed rooftop PV is far more valuable to the grid than a gigawatt nuke, since it can't fail all at once, it's output generally tracks the daily load curve, and it takes load off of the grid infrastructure. And it costs less, even without factoring in the grid infrastructure and fast ramping generation required to back up a gigawatt nuke.

The nuclear technology that makes the most sense to me going forward its Transatomic's molten salt reactor design, since it's scalable and can be co-located on existing nuclear reactor sites. The existing nuclear sites already has centuries worth of fuel for the molten salt reactor on hand, in the form of spent fuel rods chillin' in the ponds or sealed up in casks. That keeps the addition grid infrastructure required well bounded, and the fuel is already mined & processed. After the fuel is cycled through the molten salt reactor, exploiting most of the remaining 95% of energy in the fuel, it then only has to be stored for a few hundred years rather than tens of thousands of years before it can be handled safely. Designing storage that's reasonably reliable for 500 years is something humans can do with some certainty, and in many cases that storage can be built on-site, you don't have the transportation/spillage-release expense & worry.

There is no short shrift happening regarding nuclear power, but rather, a sober analysis of the likely scenarios of the evolving grid. It takes too big a bet over too long a time scale to make the economics of nuclear power work without a lot of subsidy safety net in place. Vertically integrated utilities under a regulatory that pays them a guaranteed return on the capital investment are the only ones interested, but that utility model & regulatory structure is going out as fast as the tide that precedes the tsunami.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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Your semi-literate opinion...you make me laugh. My claim to fame is provoking thoughtful and elucidating from the master of all things Short shrift indeed. The demise of over-regulation and ill-conceived subsidies would be welcome.

Scalable nukes are the answer to a good share of our future energy needs. Security is assured with reactors licensed with the US.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2006/05/is-nuclear-power-scalabl.html

http://www.theenergycollective.com/charlesbarton/190731/small-nuclear-power-and-nuclear-scalability
 

Dana

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Your semi-literate opinion...you make me laugh. My claim to fame is provoking thoughtful and elucidating from the master of all things Short shrift indeed. The demise of over-regulation and ill-conceived subsidies would be welcome.

Scalable nukes are the answer to a good share of our future energy needs. Security is assured with reactors licensed with the US.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2006/05/is-nuclear-power-scalabl.html

http://www.theenergycollective.com/charlesbarton/190731/small-nuclear-power-and-nuclear-scalability

Scalable nukes are but one possible answer for a good share of our future energy needs, and not necessarily the most economic. Since none of the "little nuke that could" designs have been commercialized yet, it's hard to know for sure how it will pencil out in the renewables intensive future. It all looks good in theory, but the practice needs to be proven.

TransAtomic's design has the additional economic advantage of the fuel having essentially negative cost- it's taking care of a waste disposal problem rather than creating one, and required no mining, or transportation for that fuel, and minimal fuel processing. They are still in the materials testing phase to make sure the higher temps and other aspects don't run into longevity issues, but it should be a pretty cheap build. It's probably going to be much cheaper and safer to run the spent fuel rods of the legacy nuclear reactors through the molten salt reactor than to store & safeguard that stuff for 50,000 years. I 'd give them better odds of eventual economic success than the thorium reactor designs- you still have to dig up refine and process the thorium fuel before putting it in the reactor, and that has to be quite a bit more expensive than emptying the (hot, but already refined) fuel out of spent fuel rods.

But the power output may still be more expensive on a lifecycle basis than future renewables, unless they're getting paid for the waste processing value.
 

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Apparently ABB (the big grid-widget company selling everything from dumb meters to grid power switches and transformers etc) seems convince that even with microgrids PV could supply 30% of the total power without "creating chaos", and with some grid-smarts it could be 50%.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/abb-says-microgrids-with-50-per-cent-solar-do-not-need-storage-66327

They also seem to think that you could go higher than 30% penetration of intermittent renewables on a bigger but still dumb grid is no big deal. For a grid that was 75%+ renewables it would require both some grid-smarts and some grid-storage, but those solutions already exist, and will be much cheaper by the time those penetration levels are reached in the US.

It's not clear that nuclear power would actually be needed going forward. If it can be made a heluva lot cheaper than it currently is to build fuel & manage there may still be an economic case for it, but there's ample reason to think that it won't be. A large scale PV operation in Nevada signed a PPA for less than 4 cents/kwh recently.

You can't even fuel a nuke for that little using fuel stocks refined from ore, but you probably can potentially get it into that ball park using spent fuel rods in a molten salt reactor.

Mind you, that solar farm is being built with a 30% Federal tax subsidy, but at the 40 year learning curve for PV today's subsidized cost will be the all-in no-subsidy cost in another 3-4 years.

And in 15 years it'll be cheaper still, very likely cheaper than a molten salt reactor with effectively "free" fuel.

I hope the waste-gobbling molten salt reactor comes to pass, but I'm entirely sure it will as a purely economic play.
 

Reach4

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It's not clear that nuclear power would actually be needed going forward. If it can be made a heluva lot cheaper than it currently is to build fuel & manage there may still be an economic case for it, but there's ample reason to think that it won't be. A large scale PV operation in Nevada signed a PPA for less than 4 cents/kwh recently.

I wonder if that may be an after-subsidy rate.

There are rare times when the spot price of electricity goes negative, but the wind farms will keep pushing the power. That is because they get a subsidy on every kwh over and above the nominal rate.

I think we need some more dam power, but there are people against that too.
 

Dana

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I wonder if that may be an after-subsidy rate.

There are rare times when the spot price of electricity goes negative, but the wind farms will keep pushing the power. That is because they get a subsidy on every kwh over and above the nominal rate.

I think we need some more dam power, but there are people against that too.

As I stated:

"Mind you, that solar farm is being built with a 30% Federal tax subsidy, but at the 40 year learning curve for PV today's subsidized cost will be the all-in no-subsidy cost in another 3-4 years. "

Of course it's the after-subsidy rate, which has fallen by about 35% since 2013. The all-in rate in 2015 is less than the subsidized rate of 3 years ago, which is a price drop only slightly ahead of the 40 year learning rate trend on solar.

Like building remote wind, building remote hydro has transmission grid infrastructure costs that distributed PV does not have. The whole central powerplant architecture (whether nuclear or hydro) is going away as the costs of distributed renewables drops below the cost of central power + grid infrastructure. There is enough wind resource in Wyoming to power the entire state of California, and it would even be affordable were it not the cost of the extension cord big enough to get it there.

Within the ERCOT grid region the excess of wind in the western part of TX required building substantial tramsmission lines to the eastern regions to keep the incidents of price-negative spot pricing bounded. It wasn't cheap, but arguably worth it to the ratepayers. New dams would have the same transmission grid-access issues as remote wind, and many others. There are good arguments for removing smaller and mid-sized hydro dams in much of the northeast.

Dams have plenty of environmental and economic impacts to consider, but even narrowing it down to just the climate change issue, lakes & reservoirs have significant greenhouse gas emissions in the form of methane, a product of the algae growth incurred, a problem that the mini-nukes would not have. Also co-siting molten salt reactors on existing nuclear sites (where the spent fuel-rod fuel for the molten salt reactors is already stored) incurs at most a minor real-estate impact cost. The amount of submerged real estate behind most dams in the northeastern US has lower overall power output than similarly sized utility scale PV arrays would have. Draining the lake and installing PV on those flood-planes isn't exactly the good policy though- the PV is more useful and valuable (and better protected) elsewhere.
 

Reach4

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For those following along, PV in this discusson stands for Photo Voltaic cells.

People might search for "duck curve" including http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/hawaiis-solar-grid-landscape-and-the-nessie-curve

The problem being addressed is the timing of the solar generation compared to the load. This calls for solutions that involve storage, such as pumping water up during excess power times and generating power with the pumped water during time of energy need. It would be advantageous to a more fair system that fixed PV be biased to the western sun.
 

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The value of storage is real, but over-rated as a solution to the Nessie/duck curve. Demand response, grid-aware electric hot water heaters, and electric cars on smart-chargers are a much cheaper and better way of dealing with the ramping issues than pumped hydro or batteries. And distributed batteries at the load are far more flexible and valuable than pumped hydro.

Pumped hydro is a mature technology, and effective for managing peaking loads on a "dumb" grid where the water resources and topology allow, but grid-smarts with more flexible smart loads and local storage options are cheaper and better solutions going forward. Grid-aware hot water heaters didn't make it into the most recent Energy Star standard, but they exist, and are appropriate for some of Hawaii's PV overproduction issues.

Retrofit but much dumber hot water heater controllers are a popular retrofit in Australia, which is as built-out with PV as Hawaii, but doesn't have net-metering a retail. Avoiding export to the grid and getting paid 0-8 cents for your PV output then paying 30-35 cents for heating your hot water when the PV isn't delivering make a $100 retrofit a no-brainer. All of SolarCity's installations in Australia include local storage capacity.

But even smarter grid-aware hot water heaters under grid operator control for managing mid-day grid overproduction in Hawaii is a heluva lot cheaper and more environmentally friendly than building dams & pumps and the transmission lines to support them. If the owners of grid-aware HW heaters can get paid for those ancillary services, so much the better.

At the retail price of electricity, distributed batteries on PV is already closing in on cost effective, and would be if net metering goes away, or owners get compensated for allowing the utility to control power flows into and out of the battery. That is only a matter of the state regulatory environment, not a technology hurdle. All of SolarCity's PV installations have battery-capable inverters, but in CA the utilities fought tooth an nail to limit the size of any 2-way batteries hooked onto their grids. In Hawaii the issue is more urgent, and if the regulators allow battery + PV owners to collectively bid into the ancillary grid services market, they could turn off all of their peaker generators in a matter of a few years. Even without compensating distributed battery owners and using them for grid stabilization, larger scale batteries are so flexible and valuable. and the price falling fast enough that the head of NextERA (a large investor owned utility company in the US that has been trying to buy Hawaii's utility company wholesale) is predicting that no new peakers will be built in the US after 2020.

So, while you arguably COULD use old-school pumped hydro to manage the excess mid-day PV problem and avoid the fast evening ramp, it's not at all clear that it's the most economic or valuable solution in Hawaii. By the time the environmental impact studies are done on the dam siting, the need will likely have evaporated, given the rapid economic learning curve of batteries, large and small.
 

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Very interesting thread, even if it has wandered a bit from the initial subject.

Has me wondering if I should replace my indirect water heater or install the electric one I bought off CL a few years back. My indirect is leaking thanks to my well water which has a ph comparable to battery acid. I have bought and am in the process of installing the treatment system, so whatever I use should not be destroyed by my water.

I have considered using a combination of a tankless coil and the electric water heater. My thought is that for the 6 months of the year I can do without heat, use the electric heater and during the cold months use the tankless coil inline before the electric. I would also superinsulate the electric.

Years ago I thought about doing this but was told by an HVAC guy that having a boiler that sat cold 6 months a year is asking for trouble. What say you folks about this idea?
 

Dana

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Very interesting thread, even if it has wandered a bit from the initial subject.

Has me wondering if I should replace my indirect water heater or install the electric one I bought off CL a few years back. My indirect is leaking thanks to my well water which has a ph comparable to battery acid. I have bought and am in the process of installing the treatment system, so whatever I use should not be destroyed by my water.

I have considered using a combination of a tankless coil and the electric water heater. My thought is that for the 6 months of the year I can do without heat, use the electric heater and during the cold months use the tankless coil inline before the electric. I would also superinsulate the electric.

Years ago I thought about doing this but was told by an HVAC guy that having a boiler that sat cold 6 months a year is asking for trouble. What say you folks about this idea?

There's no net payback for super-insulating an electric hot water heater, since any new HW heater already has more than 2x the insulation of it's 1990s ancestor. Even an R-infinity upgrade only approaches an EF of 1.0, well below that of a heat pump water heater (HPWH) An HPWH located in the boiler room (but not hooked up to the boiler) would allow you to run the boiler at a lower minimum temperature on the boiler in winter. Lower temperature operation increase the system efficiency, since it lowers jacket & distribution losses. An HPWH would also help dehumidify the boiler room (usually a basement) in summer. An HPWH with an EF of 3 (several models are in this range now) pulls 2/3 of it's heat from the room it's in and lowering the boiler room temp a couple of degrees would also lower the heat loss from the house. From an overall systems-efficiency it's a net improvement.

There is no advantage to running the cold feed of an HPWH through the tankless coil on the boiler, since the heat it's drawing from the boiler directly is more expensive than electricity at an EF of 3. And there's another down side to it: Running cold incoming water through a non-operating boiler's coil in the summer can create condensation on the fire-side of the heat exchanger plates causing them to rust & corrode faster.

Older boilers with stretched through bolts will sometimes leak when cold, but there is no really good reason to keep a boiler at 150F all summer to manage that issue.

The down sides to HPWH is slow recovery rates in heat-pump-only mode, and they can be a bit noisy. In a basement boiler room the noise issue isn't usually a big deal, but in a garage or utility room right next to your bedroom it might be.
 

Pete C

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There's no net payback for super-insulating an electric hot water heater, since any new HW heater already has more than 2x the insulation of it's 1990s ancestor. Even an R-infinity upgrade only approaches an EF of 1.0, well below that of a heat pump water heater (HPWH) An HPWH located in the boiler room (but not hooked up to the boiler) would allow you to run the boiler at a lower minimum temperature on the boiler in winter. Lower temperature operation increase the system efficiency, since it lowers jacket & distribution losses. An HPWH would also help dehumidify the boiler room (usually a basement) in summer. An HPWH with an EF of 3 (several models are in this range now) pulls 2/3 of it's heat from the room it's in and lowering the boiler room temp a couple of degrees would also lower the heat loss from the house. From an overall systems-efficiency it's a net improvement.

There is no advantage to running the cold feed of an HPWH through the tankless coil on the boiler, since the heat it's drawing from the boiler directly is more expensive than electricity at an EF of 3. And there's another down side to it: Running cold incoming water through a non-operating boiler's coil in the summer can create condensation on the fire-side of the heat exchanger plates causing them to rust & corrode faster.

Older boilers with stretched through bolts will sometimes leak when cold, but there is no really good reason to keep a boiler at 150F all summer to manage that issue.

The down sides to HPWH is slow recovery rates in heat-pump-only mode, and they can be a bit noisy. In a basement boiler room the noise issue isn't usually a big deal, but in a garage or utility room right next to your bedroom it might be.

The water heater I have is a regular resistance coil electric. Does this change anything?
 

Dana

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I was under the impression that by "....wondering if I should replace my indirect water heater..." you were still using the indirect.

You can get off-peak rates on power it might make sense to hook up the CL electric, but if you're on Eversource or National Grid fixed-rate residential it's worth going with an HPWH.

No matter what a tankless coil is bad idea, since the standby temps required to get more than mediocre hot water performance out of the oil boiler is pretty high. It might be marginally cheaper at this year's reduce oil prices to heat hot water with an indirect than with the CL electric tank, but nowhere near as cheap as a HPWH.
 

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Sounds like the HPWH is the way to go. I would like to think that 2 dollar oil is here for awhile, but, I know better. The boiler is close to 15 years old, so I think I am also going to take a good long look at mini split systems. I am comfortable working with plumbing (I installed my boiler and indirect in 2001) so I am confiddent I could install it, but would definitely like to hire a pro for final inspection, charging and leak tests. Are there licensed techs in my area that might be interested in that sort of work?
 

Dana

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A critical aspect of mini-split heaiting solutions is sizing them correctly for the load. If you undersize them so that they're running at max speed most of the season (a common condition when using them to offset oil use) you'll get at best a seasonal COP of about 2-2.5 out of them in CT climate. If you size them so large that they're cycling on/off whenever it's above freezing it's similarly bad. But if you nail it on the sizing you can beat a COP of 3 with the latest-greatest cold climate mini-splits, which is quite a difference in operating cost (~50% more heat per kwh.)

It's easy to use the boiler as a measuring instrument to determine the whole-house load, but it won't tell you the room or zone loads. The room & zone loads can be inferred from the radiation sizing if the temperature balances are about right.

But you won't have to bother- oil is going to be below $2 any day now and stay there for at least a decade, if you believe some analysts! ;-) (I think those were the same guys betting on $200/bbl crude only three years ago.)
 
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