What's this spare vertical pipe for? **Pic** Oh and hello TL!

[Mike Hawk]

Recently our "friendly Mr. Culligan" man quoted us $5,400 for a water softener system + another $600 for a RO under sink filter

After I recovered from sticker shock I decided it was time to finally start educating myself
--Started to educate myself--
After I recovered from being pissed off on how much dam markup they were trying to charge us, I'm ready to pull the trigger and get my hands dirty.

City water
13 GPG
237 TDS
--Still need to measure my flow rate. We have 4 full baths so probably the biggest valve size.
--Still need to look at past water bills to figure out how many gallons per month. (2 adults, 2 kids)
0 PPM Iron
0 PPM Hydrogen Sulfide
7 PH
I've got a Hach 5b on order so I can verifiy Mr. Culligan's GPG listed above. Using my calcium drop test from my pool I'm 75ppm on that alone (4.39 GPG calcium) I find it hard to believe the reset of the GPG is magnisum but whatever... Hach will confirm what my true reading is.

Anyhoo. On to the install.
Our water heater is in an exterior closet where the main shutoff valve is also located. Conveniently there's also an outlet in the closet. SCORE ONE for easy install!!!

We also have a hot water recirculator and a pool.

If I turn off the yellow valve it shuts off water to all spigots interior/exterior. Dunno why the put on a capped branch? Who knows. But what's that second vertical capped pipe for?

There's also this mess behind the water heater. Dunno why they didn't drywall it

Were the capped horizontal and vertical lines put in place by the previous owner in case a softener would eventually be put in? I'm hopeful that only our interior bathroom and washer gets softened water and that this line is a separate branch.

The only other thing I can think of is that the capped vertical pipe goes to our pool and could have been used as an automatic pool top off feeder?

As for a softener, I'm leaning toward the Fleck 7000 SXT 48k. Still trying to figure out the best internet seller to buy from.

For the RO water filter I went with an Express Water 5 stage system with extra filters for $139 off Ebay. Woot?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Stage-Hom...S-Extra-7-EXP-Water-USA-Filters-/271555919071

Blows my mind I'll be able to order all the parts for well under $1k and a couple hours of my time to install them. But I guess there are suckers born every minute so Culligan can stay in business.

 

[ByteMe]

IMO, Mr Culligan was trying to flock you. Good job in educating yourself.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

Not woot!

I doubt you will find anyone on this site who thinks clear housings is a good idea inside of a house. Buying the cheapest R.O.... you get what you pay for. I am not an advocate of the $600 RO system by any stretch, but EBAY R.O. systems are nothing more than a race to see who can source the lowest quality, lowest cost garbage components possible in order to be $1 cheaper than the next guy. I worked for one of the larger importers of water treatment equipment, and I assure you, the $139 price is not worth the potential for leaks, failed housings, and no name equipment you are getting. Stick with companies that use high quality housings, (Pentek, QMP, Payne,) high quality fittings, (John Guest, Parker, GA Murdock), and high quality filters internally, (Omnipure, Clack, hydrocure, Pentek, Matrix). I can source a complete RO including faucet and tank for $59.00 from China, it is worth far less.

The system you refer to claims it is from the USA. I would like to see them show you a single part of the unit that is made in the USA.

You can get a high quality R.O. for under $300 from some reputable companies with reputable parts and components.

 

[ByteMe]

Hey Ditto, is there a RO manufacture left in the USA (the actual hardware)?

I've had good luck with the last 5 china RO units I purchased that included a permiate and/or a booster pump.

 

[Mike Hawk]

Interesting. Didn't know clear=bad. Reasoning?

As long as the housings and lines don't leak then who cares? I can upgrade my filters here in a year or so and all should be good? I couldn't care less about brand name or where it's made as long as it does the job. So sick of manufactures and 'image'/'branding' making the same things on the same exact production line but charging a premium with nothing to back it up other than fake piece of mind.

Where's a good place to source these filters in the future?

Oh and about that vertical line?

 

[ByteMe]

I think a clear housing could support bacterial/algae growth.

I am all for getting quality and good service, but with the cheaper (price) RO units, $130 to me is easily considered a throw-away item.

But then, I have purchased a number of RO units over the years for me, friends and family. If the unit wasn't broken when you got it, it was good for the entire time I had it. I only purchased Pentek or Matrix filters and Filmtec membranes.

My understanding is that all the RO stuff is made overseas. So, just find a company with decent after sale service to buy from.

Water Express as per feedback ratings seems to have good service.

 

[ByteMe]

In your situation with city water at 13gpg and 4 bathrooms. I'd size the softener for max flow vs capacity. 2 cuft minimum or 2.5 cuft because the extra .5 cuft costs like $80 more.

I'd buy;

Clack WS 1.25 or Fleck 7000 valve, 2.5 cuft resin (10% crosslink or sst60 resin as options if you have money to burn), 13" x52" resin tank, gravel or quartz underbedding, 18" x40" brine tank.

But then I don't actually have much of a clue. Others here do.

 

[Bannerman]

I seem to recall the issue with clear filter housings being molded of a brittle plastic and not being able to withstand typical service pressure over time. There is increased potential for breakage and flood damage.

Dittohead mentioned quality brands since those brands have a good performance and reliability record over the long term. Water leakage can be very damaging to your home so its wise to choose quality components for your family's peace of mind. While most of us want to save money where we can, you're already reducing costs in installing the equipment yourself so don't skimp on cheaply made and unproven components.

As the yellow valve is your main service shut off, that is typically where the softener would be connected. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much room there, or anywhere in that closet actually.

I first suspected the vertical capped line as a drain for the softener but, there is a floor drain very close to that location. It may have been originally intended for the water heater TPR valve which I see is now surface plumbed to the floor drain. It could still be a drain connection but you'll need to investigate to verify.

A softener requires 3 main plumbing connections - Raw water inlet, soft water outlet and a drain which is utilized during each regeneration cycle.

The connections behind the water heater seems to be a manifold of sorts, feeding various branch lines. You'll need to investigate to determine where they are fed from and where they go to.

It appears the manifold is located in the stud cavity. Since the connections are removable, those connections should remain accessible which is likely why the wall was left open.

A softener will typically supply the entire house other than exterior irrigation spigots. You will likely want a softened outside connection for washing the car, dog, windows, patio furniture, etc.

Some people do not connect the kitchen sink cold feed to a softener as they prefer drinking hard water. You mention obtaining RO system for drinking, which should be fed soft water.

In consideration of 4 full baths, I tend to agree with ByteMe with regard to a larger softener. Each size softener has a specific maximum flow rating which when exceeded, hardness can bleed through to the plumbing system. This has nothing to do with the flow capacity of the valve but is dependant on the quantity of resin.
While a greater quantity of resin has higher total softening capacity, it also can support higher GPM while still providing soft water.

If 4 people were showering at the same time, the flow demand maybe high enough for a smallish softener, that some hardness will bleed through while that will be less likely with a slightly larger unit.

 

[Mike Hawk]

Thanks for the replies.

I currently have a GE 2 stage filter under the sink that has opaque cases. I could see if they work as a replacements to the clears.

I'll probably also get a cheap water alarm or two to be on the safe side:
Glentronics, Inc. BWD-HWA Basement Watchdog Water Sensor and Alarm
Never thought of the manifold aspect. Duh. Why can I be so dumb some times? Rhetorical question, don't answer that! I could always just remove the heater (who's flame spreader is failing anyway) and figure out which pipe goes to where.

I'll definitely want soft water for when washing our cars. I've been using the distilled ONR method on the wife's black car but would love to try out regular ole soft water on our cars. We have an irrigation system but we haven't had to turn it on because for better or worse all the neighborhood and field water runs off thru our yard to a feeder creek we have in our back yard that goes to our neighbor's pond.

Only thing we'd really need just regular hard water for then I guess is when I top off the pool? No need to waste regen/salt? I've left the spigot on for hours before getting the water level to rise a couple inches, which surprises me as we only have a 15k gallon pool.

 

[Bannerman]

I've been using the distilled ONR method on the wife's black car but would love to try out regular ole soft water on our cars.

While I'm not sure what ONR means, water softening does not reduce TDS. While you mention TDS results in your initial post, that measurement is mostly irrelevant when determining the amount of hardness that is to be removed.

Water softeners work by ion exchange, that is, by exchanging calcium and magnesium ions (hardness) in the water, with softer sodium ions. The TDS reading in hard water will not be reduced but is often increased through softening.

As TDS in the water is the usual cause of water spots, the soft water will likely not eliminate them but they should be easier to remove.

 

[ditttohead]

Hey Ditto, is there a RO manufacture left in the USA (the actual hardware)?

I've had good luck with the last 5 china RO units I purchased that included a permiate and/or a booster pump.

USA made RO's are readily available, but more importantly is the manufacturer for many reasons. I used to work for a major imprter of water treatment equipment which supplied many companies with their assembly equipment for RO systems. The failure rate was excessively hig (catastrophic, to minor leaks) and the high number of claims was difficult to deal with to say the least. A small water leak can easily cause tens of thousands of dollars of damage and trying to get a company based in China to assist with claim is nearly impossible.

5 units is not a real test. I sold and distributed 10's of thousands. The constant race to be the cheapest in the past 10 years has led to many companies changing names after the damage claims built up. Many of the companies who have their product lines distributed in the US do not have any insurance here, only the company that distributes it, and their insurance levels tend to be very low.

Pentair, Clack, Omnipure, etc all have a vested interest in quality control to ensure their product has very little potential for failure. We have seen many claims get declined by the insurance companies due to the lack of proper documentation etc. Attached is a nice picture of a failed part that caused in excess of $80,000 in damage to a house. This was from a major manufacturer in China, the response from the manufacturer was basically, "haha, were in China, sue us".

Chinese permeate pump?

We assemble and stock USA made R.O.'s, including the faucet, housings, brackets, filters cartridges, even the storage tank. The tubing and fittings are made in either the USA or the UK.

We also assemble the R.O.'s with Pentek housings, which are made in China, but they are backed by a real company in the USA.

While you may get lucky and not have any leaks for a time on the cheap R.O.'s the increased liability is not worth the risk. As anyone who has been doing these for any length of time will tell you, saving $30 is not worth it the first time you get the call in the middle of the night about a house being flooded and the insurance adjuster will contact you in the morning.

 

[Reach4]

While I'm not sure what ONR means

It is a brand of no-rinse car wash stuff.

 

[ditttohead]

Interesting. Didn't know clear=bad. Reasoning?

As long as the housings and lines don't leak then who cares? I can upgrade my filters here in a year or so and all should be good? I couldn't care less about brand name or where it's made as long as it does the job. So sick of manufactures and 'image'/'branding' making the same things on the same exact production line but charging a premium with nothing to back it up other than fake piece of mind.

Where's a good place to source these filters in the future?

Oh and about that vertical line?

LOL, not quite.

So a Huffy is the same as a Cannondale?

Clear housings make only a very small percentage of the housing sales yet they account for the majority of failed housings. The material used to manufacture clear housings is far more brittle than the opaque housings. Regardless, no name manufacturers in China have little interest in QC, they are price focused. USA companies that import have a need to stay in business so when they manufacture in China, they typically have their own team of QC engineers from the USA on site to ensure the quality is maintained. When it comes to high liability items, quality and name are important. Since their is very little regulation in the water treatment industry, it is easy to bring in equipment that could barely be considered garbage.

 

[ditttohead]

Thanks for the replies.

I currently have a GE 2 stage filter under the sink that has opaque cases. I could see if they work as a replacements to the clears.

I'll probably also get a cheap water alarm or two to be on the safe side:

Never thought of the manifold aspect. Duh. Why can I be so dumb some times? Rhetorical question, don't answer that! I could always just remove the heater (who's flame spreader is failing anyway) and figure out which pipe goes to where.

I'll definitely want soft water for when washing our cars. I've been using the distilled ONR method on the wife's black car but would love to try out regular ole soft water on our cars. We have an irrigation system but we haven't had to turn it on because for better or worse all the neighborhood and field water runs off thru our yard to a feeder creek we have in our back yard that goes to our neighbor's pond.

Only thing we'd really need just regular hard water for then I guess is when I top off the pool? No need to waste regen/salt? I've left the spigot on for hours before getting the water level to rise a couple inches, which surprises me as we only have a 15k gallon pool.

A simple DI filter is great for rinsing cars. Soft water is certainly better then hard but it will leave spots.

 

[Bannerman]

In looking again at that tube beside the main water valve, is it actually connected to anything?

Could it be a ~3' length of discharge tube originally from the water heater TPR valve? When the surface plumbing was installed, that piece of tubing may have been placed there after being removed from the TPR valve.

 

[Mike Hawk]

It goes into our slab foundation. No idea where or if it pops out anywhere else or is connected to anything else.