What is the need for gravel bed in downflow backwashing calcite tanks?

[Sultan]

Is the calcite not heavy enough to hold the riser in place? Or is there some other reason?

Whenever i remove the valve to fill in the calcite the riser tube is always pulled up by the valve. Tired of trying to fix it. Are there any other solutions?

 

[Reach4]

Whenever i remove the valve to fill in the calcite the riser tube is always pulled up by the valve. Tired of trying to fix it. Are there any other solutions?

Your next calcite tank will have a little port near the top to refill into.

 

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[ditttohead]

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/116-117

Dome holes on the tanks, or fill port heads eliminate this problem. Gravel should be used. It promotes a more even distribution of the water and prevents channeling.

 

[Sultan]

So I have ordered a 13x54 (same as my old one) non-backwashing vortech tank (with port hole) to replace my original one.

Can I re-use my old autotrol valve with it and make it downflow with backwashing? Or should i use it as a upflow non-backwashing system?

I have only trace amounts of iron/rust.

Thank you

 

[ditttohead]

I always prefer backwashing over Upflow.

 

[Sultan]

I always prefer backwashing over Upflow.

So is converting a Vortech tank to backwashing fine? I can hook up my autotrol valve from the old tank to the new one.

Just need to make sure the riser tube length is correct. I am assuming the tube diameter and the opening is all standard.

 

[Reach4]

So is converting a Vortech tank to backwashing fine? I can hook up my autotrol valve from the old tank to the new one.

Just need to make sure the riser tube length is correct. I am assuming the tube diameter and the opening is all standard.

Not all Autotrol controls are the same by any means. Not all have the same distributor tube diameter. The most common tube is 1.05 OD ("3/4" PVC). My old Autotrol had a distributor tube that was considerably smaller.

Is your old controller made for softening? If it has a long multi-lobe cam, it would go through all of the stages, including brine draw and brine fill. You could block off the brine line so those would not bother things except they would take the time.

Newer Autrtrol valves may have a lot more flexibility.

Backwashing calcite takes more gpm that backwashing a softener. You would need to figure out what you need and how to set the backwash rate. A 10 inch diameter softener takes about 2.4 gpm. A calcite filter might backwash at 8 gpm... I could be off on that number. It might take more.

 

[Sultan]

Is your old controller made for softening?

Basically i am just replacing an old calcite tank (with the autotrol valve and no porthole. 13x54 inch 2.5 cubic foot) with the same capacity Vortech tank with port hole. So the autotrol valve is already setup for backwashing whatever capacity it needed to for neutralization (as configured by my tank servicing company). I will need to check the distributor tube diameter on the new tank though.

The valve is very old though and my current servicing company suddenly decided that they dont support that valve any more and refused to service my system (valve works fine but is really old. autotrol 163, i think). Basically they want to sell me a new valve for about $600 - 700. I thought i might as well get a porthole tank for slightly cheaper and take them out of the equation for calcite service.

But the vendor i bought the new tank from said that if i dont have much iron/rust in the water then i dont even need to backwash. And that the Vortech tank will self distribute the calcite media to avoid channeling due to the upflow configuration. The new tank comes with a non-backwashing valve.

 

[ditttohead]

Please post a picture of your old valve. Im not sure I have that pic in my file.

 

[Reach4]

he valve is very old though and my current servicing company suddenly decided that they dont support that valve any more and refused to service my system (valve works fine but is really old. autotrol 163, i think).

Nice. That is a valve made for backwashing rather than softening. It uses a 1.05 distributor tube.

You can clean it up while it is off.

 

[Sultan]

Please post a picture of your old valve. Im not sure I have that pic in my file.

https://imgur.com/a/uDzScBl

 

[Sultan]

Nice. That is a valve made for backwashing rather than softening. It uses a 1.05 distributor tube.

You can clean it up while it is off.

I assume by "clean it up" you dont just mean wiping the dust off. Not sure if i want to open things up and mess with the insides.

 

[Reach4]

I assume by "clean it up" you dont just mean wiping the dust off. Not sure if i want to open things up and mess with the insides.

OK. I looked at the manual. The things you would clean in a softener are capped off.

One thing that bothers me a bit. Code 8 part "backwash control" in the drawing only goes up to 4.81 gpm. That seems a bit low to me, but not bad. My earlier guess of 8 or more gpm to backwash was too much. However I think you would want more like 6. If you search around for suggested backwash rates, note that a 10 inch tank is 0.545 square feet in cross-section area. 4.81 gpm would be 8.82 gpm/sqft.


If you got a natural colored tank, you can backlight the tank in the dark. That lets you check the level. During backwashing, you should see the media rise up.

 

[ditttohead]

Heck, that's not old at all. I was mistaken on the valve, when you said really old I was thinking of the older Autotrols that were beige or translucent yellow in color.

That valve is a work horse. The main gear on the front has a tendancy to break as does the cam yoke, but other than that it is a great valve!

 

[Reach4]

That valve is a work horse. The main gear on the front has a tendancy to break as does the cam yoke, but other than that it is a great valve!

I was thinking about that. I have thought of two preventative measures.

1. every few months or annually, drop power for an hour. Then re-set the time. The plan is that a different part of that gear will be driven when it is triggering the backwash.
2. I wonder if some plastic-safe lube could make the forces on that be reduced a tad.

 

[Sultan]

One thing that bothers me a bit. Code 8 part "backwash control" in the drawing only goes up to 4.81 gpm. That seems a bit low to me, but not bad. My earlier guess of 8 or more gpm to backwash was too much. However I think you would want more like 6. If you search around for suggested backwash rates, note that a 10 inch tank is 0.545 square feet in cross-section area. 4.81 gpm would be 8.82 gpm/sqft.

If you got a natural colored tank, you can backlight the tank in the dark. That lets you check the level. During backwashing, you should see the media rise up.

Not sure of the backflow rate. I have a 12/13 inch tank. Maybe the backwash controller was already set up for that size and for the proper rate.

I dont have the new tank yet. The new tank is translucent but the old one is not.

Frankly, i was planning to use the new Vortech tank without backwash (with the supplied Clack C1190 control valve) and see if there are any issues. If i see issues then i would install the autotrol valve.

However i really dont know if i will be able to identify any issues due to not backwashing.

 

[Reach4]

Not sure of the backflow rate. I have a 12/13 inch tank. Maybe the backwash controller was already set up for that size for the proper rate.

OK. I see now... 13 inch tank. Wow. That is 0.922 sqft.

You could measure the backwash rate by timing the flow into a 5 gallon bucket.

Issues would be that channels could develop and pass the water through without enough contact.

Don't forget that the input and output piping is opposite between Autotrol and Clack.

 

[Sultan]

Issues would be that channels could develop and pass the water through without enough contact.

yes, so the new vortech tank is a upflow tank so it always pushes the calcite upwards while in normal operation. That is supposed to prevent channeling since the calcite is always churning around.

I will keep measuring the PH to see if it is not effective. And maybe also open the port hole to visually check inside. But are channels, if they form, visible to the naked eye?

 

[Reach4]

Ahh... I see on page 6 of the manual that there is a "optional auxiliary backwash valve" higher-backwash option. Your controller probably has that.

 

[Sultan]

Ahh... I see on page 6 of the manual that there is a "optional auxiliary backwash valve" higher-backwash option. Your controller probably has that.

No. i dont have that. From the diagram it should be sticking off of the side, which i dont see in my case.