What brand pumps are you installing?

[ThirdGenPump]

I don't have any particular preference among all stainless pumps. I find them to be competitive. My company has used Grundfos, Deming, Burks, Flint and Walling, Myers, and Goulds. I've pulled out plenty of others that have stood the test of time.

Supply and service from the distributors is really a more important factor to me than any brand name.

I've been using Goulds GS series pumps almost exclusively for a while now. I'm less trusting of the CentriPro Motors but I haven't actually had too many issue with them. Last year I had 3 1HP's fail under warranty from the same time frame, It doesn't inspire confidence but those have been the only failures so far.

In most regards my Goulds distributor has been good to deal with, I'm a top priority to them and I can get anything I need delivered on site in a few hours. One of the things that is bothering me at the moment is they've decided to charge for 'classes' Goulds sends out a rep to basically sell me on products, I don't find them particularly informative but they are pretty good for apprentices to see and hear something from someone besides me. I've expressed my displeasure and they are comping me for them but they seem to have the attitude I should pay them to teach my guys how to sell their product, I feel if they want me to sell their stuff classes should be free. They also tried to say I had to buy 3 pumps per Goulds certification in January a few years ago(I make sure I'm fully stocked at the end of the year) My response was I guess I'm a Grundfos company now, they quickly changed their minds. These things while minor are still making me think maybe a switch is in order.

I've been dealing with the Flint and Walling distributor since the beginning of time, I occasionally use their jet pumps for different applications, but geographically they aren't that close so I've never really given them to much business, I don't think that's a very big limitation but it's kinda been out of site out of mind. My grandfather used a lot of Flint and Wallings, It's not uncommon for me to be pulling ones up that are 40 years old. My grandfather stopped using them at some point, I have no idea why. During my fathers tenure it was mostly Burks and Goulds.

I got a new sales rep from the F&W distributor recently and he's rather hungry. They came back with really good pricing, I'm considering moving to them as a primary supplier. No one in my area is using F&W so I don't get much of a feel for how they are actually doing. The only ones I pull out are ancient. They've been making their own motors in the US for a little while now and being able to sell an all American pump again does have a certain allure. Anyone have any recent hands on experience with them?

 

[ThirdGenPump]

My oldest so far was a Sumo from 1964, I pulled it out in 2014. It had a pipe failure in 1985 though and my father pulled it and reset it. It was on an Easter Sunday. I assume he didn't have a replacement so just pulled it up, replaced the pipe and dropped it back in, same wire. I don't think anyone was expecting another 29 years, it had no right making the first 20.

I have a Goulds from 1961 still in service. I'm kinda hoping the customer doesn't get nervous and replace it early just so we can see how long it goes.

Nice to meet you.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

I would consider an ALL Stainless Steel pump to be one like a Grundfos that has SS impellers. Goulds, F&W, and others only have a SS case with all plastic internals. Not that all plastic pumps are bad, it depends on the design. The floating impeller or floating stage pumps where the impellers drag on the diffusers create the most friction, heat, and therefore the amps don't decrease with flow the way they should. I have been using Sta-Rite floating stage pumps for decades, and although the amps do not drop as well as other pumps, I have never had a problem of melting impellers when used with a Dole Valve or a CSV.

I also never had a problem with the old Jacuzzi pumps with regular impellers, hub seals and rings. But since Franklin bought them out, they have changed everything to the floating stage type pump, and we are already seeing problems with impellers melting. For some reason Franklin's floating stage pumps cannot take low flow rates like the Sta-Rite floating stage pumps. Like all the changes Franklin has made over the years, it was not to make a better pump, but to make it more profitable, which is just the opposite. I think Franklin customers are going to start seeing a lot of failures, especially when used with Dole valves, or other controls like in their In line boosters with submersibles. These type controls use a float switch for shut off instead of a pressure switch, and the flow can be low enough to melt the impellers.

My favorite has always been the Grundfos. I have many still running that were installed in the 70's. The oldest one I personally have was installed in 82. It was one of the first Grundfos made with a spline shaft. They sent me one to test, and it is still running today.

 

[Craigpump]

Pentair 1hp-5's have serious problems with shaft deflection. Their ceramic inserts on the impellors eat into the shaft creating even more problems.

A friend was telling me yesterday that they've had trouble with the motor to wet end shaft couplings splitting.

I've had a few 1hp-5 Grundfos right out of the box that wouldn't start due to improperly torqued straps.

The local Goulds dealer is Goulds biggest account in the east and he seems to wield more influence thn he should.

Im thinking an old Meyers working heads and sucker rods might be the way to go......

 

[Valveman]

Im thinking an old Meyers working heads and sucker rods might be the way to go......

So all pump companies are making pumps so cheap and short lived anymore that we are resorting back to the old sucker rod pump huh? That is a sad statement about manufacturers. It has become so important that the turnover rate of pumps be so short to keep the cash flow going to the manufacturers, that nobody makes a quality pump anymore. Even with the quality pumps that are still being manufactured they try to talk people into one of those fancy pressure controllers or a VFD as they shorten the life of the pump and make more money for the manufacturers. It is a sad state of affairs we live with today in that the most important design feature is a short product life, instead of being made to last.

I have been dealing with this for years with pump companies trying anyway to keep people from using a CSV as it makes pumps last longer. But continuing to re-design pumps to fail more often has become common place. As long as people keep looking for the cheapest price instead of the best quality, they are going to keep giving us what we ask for. They are glad you had rather buy a new $400 pump every couple years than offer an $800 pump that will last a life time.

 

[Craigpump]

I'm not advocating working heads and sucker rods, but the heads lasted forever and with a clean well the cups and barrels would hold up well too.

Unfortunately, the Internet has helped create and perpetuate the lousy pump syndrome, people would rather buy two junk units instead of 1 quality unit that lasts twice as long.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

Unfortunately, the Internet has helped create and perpetuate the lousy pump syndrome, people would rather buy two junk units instead of 1 quality unit that lasts twice as long.

I think a lot of factors have lead up to it. Average home ownership is down to 7 years, with people moving so often they doesn't see a lot of value in paying for something that will last 30. No one ever seems to value wells or associated equipment when purchasing a house so any money people throw into them is a loss when it comes time to sell.

I have plenty of customers who are perfectly willing to pay considerably more for dependable equipment, manufacturers are never willing to offer those people what they want, it's to limited a market.

 

[Valveman]

I think a lot of factors have lead up to it. Average home ownership is down to 7 years, with people moving so often they doesn't see a lot of value in paying for something that will last 30. No one ever seems to value wells or associated equipment when purchasing a house so any money people throw into them is a loss when it comes time to sell.

I have plenty of customers who are perfectly willing to pay considerably more for dependable equipment, manufacturers are never willing to offer those people what they want, it's to limited a market.

I completely agree. People have been shopping for the lowest price equipment for so long, that now there is nothing available except low price equipment (cheap built pumps) to choose from. Every manufacturer has had to comply with what the customer was asking for, so now they all make cheap built pumps, because price is all people look for.

Just another good reason for a CSV, as it will reduce the cycling and make even a cheaply built pump last longer. That is as long as it is not a super cheaply built pump like the new <25 GPM Franklin pumps with the dragging or "floating stage" design.

 

[PumpMd]

We have been using Franklin pumps since 07, I would have say they are doing just fine without the restrictions, they were having problems before the new tri seal design and I was showing other brands as far back as the mid to late 90's that were having these same problems.

I see cheap pumps lasting a long time in my area. We are so confident that even this one is for sell in our used pumps. Got it sometime in 2015 from a DIY that decided to buy a new pump because of age, so it has had a good 14yrs of use and ready to go back in a well.

 

[Valveman]

We have been using Franklin pumps since 07, I would have say they are doing just fine without the restrictions, they were having problems before the new tri seal design and I was showing other brands as far back as the mid to late 90's that were having these same problems.

I see cheap pumps lasting a long time in my area. We are so confident that even this one is for sell in our used pumps. Got it sometime in 2015 from a DIY that decided to buy a new pump because of age, so it has had a good 14yrs of use and ready to go back in a well.

I am not worried about the older Franklins. But I would be very careful with the new "floating stage" design, especially since they are already having problems.

Isn't that Water Ace made by Pentair? I think it was what they called it before Flotec.

 

[Texas Wellman]

I use mostly goulds, 10 gpm 1/2 - 1 HP. My favorite was the LS series which was the same as the GS with brass instead of stainless. Now they changed from LS to CS. The CS are stainless heads instead of brass but I don't know about the internals. I have used the GS series from time to time but they are quite a bit more expensive unless you're going to a bigger pump. I have not had any problems with either the pumps or the motors. I agree that it's more to do with how your distributor treats you. IMO Franklin shat the bed when they got into the pump market. I have no reason to use Franklin, their factory is no longer here for small motors. If I did switch I'd like to try F&W. I hear nothing but good stuff about them.

 

[PumpMd]

Flotec owns Water Ace and flotec is owned by Sta-Rite, these brands use the cheap line Franklin motors and the same thing can be said about Utilitech Pumps too(I don't think Franklin owns Utilitech but I could be wrong).


http://www.sta-rite.com/ResidentialAbout_about_history.aspx

 

[VAWellDriller]

I use mostly goulds, 10 gpm 1/2 - 1 HP. My favorite was the LS series which was the same as the GS with brass instead of stainless. Now they changed from LS to CS. The CS are stainless heads instead of brass but I don't know about the internals. I have used the GS series from time to time but they are quite a bit more expensive unless you're going to a bigger pump. I have not had any problems with either the pumps or the motors. I agree that it's more to do with how your distributor treats you. IMO Franklin shat the bed when they got into the pump market. I have no reason to use Franklin, their factory is no longer here for small motors. If I did switch I'd like to try F&W. I hear nothing but good stuff about them.

I used Goulds LS forever (sorry to see them go). I've already had problems with the CS blowing the discharge head off from bad crimps.....I'm not buying anymore; they say they have fixed the problems but I don't want to be the guinea pig. I have been talked into some Flow Wise from Preferred Pump which is supposed to be a Goulds GS identical knockoff, but much cheaper cost. They have grundfos motors. I've put in about a dozen and they seem pretty good. F&W are okay, but they lie when they say they are all wet tested....I put in 3 in a row consecutive 50 gpm 5 HP's until the admitted there was a mfg problem and the wrong impellers or spacers were used....still not sure the truth. I put in a bunch of residential size <1.5HP F&W with no problems.

 

[Valveman]

Flotec owns Water Ace and flotec is owed by Sta-Rite,

And all of these are owned by Pentair. So I think they use a Pentek motor instead of a Franklin motor.

these brands use the cheap line Franklin motors and the same thing can be said about Utilitech Pumps too(I don't think Franklin owns Utilitech but I could be wrong).

I do think Franklin owns Utilitech. At least I have seen Utilitech pumps with Franklin motors on them.

 

[Texas Wellman]

Utilitech is an in-house lowes brand for everything from light switches to pumps.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

I used Goulds LS forever (sorry to see them go). I've already had problems with the CS blowing the discharge head off from bad crimps.....I'm not buying anymore; they say they have fixed the problems...

My local distributor wasn't carrying LS's then they picked them up and shortly after the picked them up Goulds quite making them. They went to that crimp on the SB's which was probably an improvement for those POSs. Then followed up by making the CS's. I don't trust them.

Price is not a driving factor for most my customers. Service and dependability is, they are willing to pay a lot more for even the slightest incremental gains. I'm always considering picking up a cheaper line to compete among more price the more conscious, but business stays steady enough so I never follow through.

I don't want to be the guinea pig.

This is big for me. Manufacturers have been using us a guinea pigs forever. They rush things to market and expect installers just to eat the costs of failure. I pretty much won't touch anything that hasn't been on the market for a half dozen years. I'll let someone else work out the bugs.

F&W are okay, but they lie when they say they are all wet tested....I put in 3 in a row consecutive 50 gpm 5 HP's until the admitted there was a mfg problem and the wrong impellers or spacers were used....still not sure the truth. I put in a bunch of residential size <1.5HP F&W with no problems.

Lying seems to be pretty well spread out across brands, Goulds says they wet test everything too but they don't. Plenty of their cheaper pumps don't work straight out of the box.
My father dropped Grundfos when they had a defect in their castings that was causing the integrated check to stick closed. After pulling a few new installs he identified the defect and pulled the 'bad' ones out of his inventory. The distributor refused to take those ones back saying 'they must fail in the field, it hasn't been stopping all of them from working' So they knew about the issue and didn't want to take any proactive measures, just stick the installers with the problem. I doubt anyone still works there to remember it, I do some business with them now but not a lot.

 

[Valveman]

So if you "won't touch anything that hasn't been on the market for a half dozen years", that doesn't leave you many products to work with. If manufacturers have something that works flawlessly for 8-10 years, they are going to make some changes. The idea is to make stuff where most live past the warranty date, but not all. They want it to live long enough to keep the customer from getting too unhappy, but not long enough for the customer to be really happy.

And yes that means the installers are doing all the labor for free, taking all the butt chewing from the customers, and getting a bad reputation to boot. The homeowner usually doesn't even know what brand of pump they have, but they know the name of the pump installer who is causing them all this trouble and expense. Because they are manufacturing products so cheaply, throwing a new pump at you for a warranty doesn't cost the manufacturer very much, but it cost the installer plenty.

I remember the check valve problem on the Grundfos. We had even worse problem with the straps breaking and letting the check valve spray water out the side of the pump. Never had that problem when they made those pumps with 4 straps, but when they switched to 3 straps we started having some problems. It seems the weld was breaking where the nut is welded to the SS strap. On the 4 strap pumps, there was a bolt welded to the other end, and it was much stronger. At the same time they switched to the 3 straps, they also made the impellers much thinner. But I still have better luck with the Grundfos than any other brand. We actually assembled our own 6" and larger pumps, so we know all the tricks. We even made our own shafts and straps so we could make pumps with many more stages than offered in the Grundfos catalog. In the 80 GPM series we made and sold a lot of 40 and 44 stage pumps. 36 stages was the most offered by Grundfos.

If you don't trust the CS, what are you using now?