Well Water System Diagnosis Help

[BlackDeal]

Hello experts! Looking for some input as I have not been able to find anything similar online.

My well is only used for outside as we connected to town when we moved in. I have no idea how old anything is or the specs on any of it. We moved in in 2016 and the water has always flowed in a wave. The pressure would be at one level for ~30 seconds then drop down for ~30 seconds then back up and so on.

Now the water flows fine for a little then drops to a trickle. It will come back but it happens again. Last night I checked the pressure gauge and it was around 50 psi. I had someone use the hose and it dropped to 0 psi and took minutes to get back up to pressure.

I drained the pressure tank of water and then tested the bladder pressure and it was 0 psi.

Now, I do not know what to do next. I’m confident that I could replace the pressure tank but am not sure if the pump needs to be replaced too.

Should I try replacing the tank and see what happens? Did my explanation narrow down what’s wrong to an expert out there? Should I just call an expert to look at it?

Any input is appreciated

 

[Reach4]

Can you show us a photo of the pump or the control box if you have a 3-wire submersible?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[BlackDeal]

Like these?

 

[Reach4]

You probably have a submersible pump. I don't see a pressure gauge; usually that is by the pressure switch. I don't see a separate "control box", so I expect you have a "2-wire" pump.

Try setting the tank precharge to 2 psi below the cut-in pressure. Precharge is set while the water pressure is zero.

Maybe the nipple to the pressure switch is largely blocked, so that the pressure is not felt at the pressure switch right away.

So your action item, I think, could be to monitor the voltage to the pump, and relate that to the pressure. If the voltage is delayed, replace the pressure switch and/or clean the nipple. If the 240 VAC voltage appears to the pump, but the pressure takes over a second to start rising, the pump may be defective. Typically the switched power to the pump provided through terminals 2 and 3 of the pressure switch, but it is not for sure that the convention was followed. The convention is that terminals 1 and 4 get the power from the breaker.

 

[Valveman]

Your problem is common and one of the oldest problems with pump systems there is. Your 30 gallon size tank holds about 8 gallons of water when new. Your 40/60 pressure switch is causing the "wave" as after using the 8 gallons from the tank the pump comes, fills the tank with 8 gallons as the pressure gets back up to 60, and the pump shuts off. This "cycle" is repeated over and over for every 8 gallons used. Cycling on and off destroys every component in a water system. First the diaphragm in the tank breaks from bending back and forth with every pump cycle. Then the tank looses air charge and holds less water. As the draw down volume of the tank changes from 8 gallons to 6, then 3, then basically zero, the pump goes from cycling every minute to every 30 seconds, then 10 seconds, then just click, click, click. Usually the pressure switch will have burned out and been replaced several times by now. But the biggest problem with the cycling is that is destroys the pump/motor. When the pump has had all the cycling it can take it starts tripping the overload in the motor. These overloads cool down in a minute or two and restart the pump. But by this time most of the "smoke" has been let out of the motor and it will soon fail to restart.

This is the oldest story about pump systems and is an easy one to fix. Just use a Cycle Stop Valve and all those problems go away. Then why doesn't every pump company use Cycle Stop Valves you may ask? Because just adding a simple and inexpensive Cycle Stop Valve causes all the problems to go away. Pumps and tanks are designed to last an average of 7 years. By adding a Cycle Stop Valve you increase the life expectancy of the pump and tank to 20-30 years. Because the CSV makes pumps and tanks last much longer it was labeled a "disruptive product" by the pump industry in 1994. The CSV is like an automatic transmission for your pump. The CSV works so well it is seen like the "percolating carburetor" that could make any car get 100 miles per gallon. The pump industry may not like the Cycle Stop Valve. But that is because of no other reason than it makes pumps last much longer and use much smaller pressure tanks.

 

[BlackDeal]

@valveman , thanks for the reply. From the research I did, I was kind of thinking that was what might have happened.

I know this is just a forum and therefore it is hard to give definitive answers. But in your opinion, would it be best to get someone in to look at the whole system (pump & tank)?

 

[Bannerman]

Suggest as a first step, shut off the pump and open the faucet to allow any remaing water to be expelled from the tank. While the faucet is open, add air to the Schrader valve fitting at the top of the tank using a tire pump or compressor. The air pressure should be increased to 2 psi below the pressure switch cut-in setting so if the system is intended to operate from 40-60 psi, the air precharge pressure should be 38 psi.

The pressure switch factory setting is usually specified on a label within the pressure switch cover, but the pressure may have been altered after installation.

If the tank will not hold the precharge, the bladder/diapghram is damaged and the tank will require replacement. If the tank will initially hold the precharge, suggest testing it again after 1-day use and if OK, check the pressure again after 1-week and then annually.

You may want to consider the Cycle Stop Valve that Valveman suggested. Not only will it eliminate pump cycling regardless of the amount of water being used, the pressure will be constant once the pump is running. If a new pressure tank is required, a CSV will allow a much smaller (& less expensive) pressure tank to be utilized.

The check-valve currently installed before the tank should be removed, but that would be the appropriate location for a CSV.

 

[Reach4]

Looking at this picture, I don't really like the way the wires are run into the terminals. I am thinking wires would have better been formed into a hook, and the wires would be largely under the screw heads. Terminal 1 is more like I would expect, but even that one is not really there.

Yet I am not sure I would mess with it at this point. It seems to work, and maybe let it go?

What do others think about how these power wires are connected to the pressure switch?

 

[Valveman]

@valveman , thanks for the reply. From the research I did, I was kind of thinking that was what might have happened.

I know this is just a forum and therefore it is hard to give definitive answers. But in your opinion, would it be best to get someone in to look at the whole system (pump & tank)?

If you don't want to do it yourself you have no choice but to call someone. The problem is, "professionals" are few and far between. If you can find a good pump man he is worth his weight in gold. But, you have about a 98% chance of getting a pump man who knows less than you do. Best to do a few test as Bannerman suggest and ask a few questions here either way. We can guide you through the diagnosis and fixing the problem, or we can at least help you with what the pump man needs to be doing. Otherwise, you can end up like a guy I talked to recently who spent 500 bucks and several days of being out of water while the so-called "professional" tried to figure out there were ants in the 20 dollar pressure switch.

Not picking on pump guys especially. The good ones know who they are and agree with me about the rest of them. There are very few real "professionals" left in any profession. I have the same problem getting service on my car, HVAC unit, refrigerator, or just about anything. If they can't connect their phone to it and have the phone tell them what is wrong, they will not be able to fix it. Nobody knows how to read an amp meter or even a pressure gauge anymore. Most things are not even repairable anymore, meant to last a short time and just be thrown away. Just as well as nobody knows how to rebuild an engine, an electric motor, or even change a light bulb I am afraid. I hate to sound like an old fart, but I am.

 

[Valveman]

Looking at this picture, I don't really like the way the wires are run into the terminals. I am thinking wires would have better been formed into a hook, and the wires would be largely under the screw heads. Terminal 1 is more like I would expect, but even that one is not really there.

Yet I am not sure I would mess with it at this point. It seems to work, and maybe let it go?

What do others think about how these power wires are connected to the pressure switch?

Not good but very common. Won't have anything to do with the problem at hand.

 

[BlackDeal]

Everyone, thanks for the responses, it is really appreciated.

When I had drained my tank and tested the bladder pressure, I tried using a bicycle pump to fill it up but after approximately 50 pumps, I barely got to 1 psi. Another thing to note that may not be seen in the picture is that the pressure gauge in front is rusted out on the bottom. I zoomed in on my original picture and attached.

Since the well is only used for outside water, sprinklers and spigots, could I get away with a 20 gallon tank with a CSV?

Oh, and I am also an old fart

 

[Valveman]

Lol! With a CSV you can get away with a 4,5 gallon size pressure tank. Yeah gonna be a while trying to air up a tank with a bike pump. Even a 12V air compressor takes forever. Especially if the tank bladder has a tear in it as it will never air up. If that is the case the tank will need to be replaced and it is a good time to switch to one of the PK1A kits with the 4.5 gallon size tank. But you still might want to invest in a small air compressor and purchase a cheap pressure gauge just to see what is going on.

 

[Bannerman]

Bike pumps and 12-volt compressors are designed to deliver high pressure, not high volume. Valveman identified your pressure tank as a 30-gallon version so that tank will hold a lot of air volume and will require a lot of pumping for any amount of pressure rise.

As the tank continued to hold even 1 psi is somewhat positive since a large tear in the diaphragm would not allow any pressure to build. A pinhole leak through the diaphragm could however allow some pressure to build, but that pressure would likely be lost within a short time.

The PK1A kit Valveman recommended, includes a CSV, 4.5 gallon tank, a new pressure switch & pressure gauge and also wall mount brackets so you can hang the CSV & tank on the wall, thereby freeing up floor space.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/frontpage/products/custom-pk1a-pside-kick-kit

 

[BlackDeal]

Ok, just ran a mattress pump for 10 minutes straight into it and could not even get 1 psi. I think I can safely say the bladder is dead.

I think I will replace the tank with what you suggest and if that doesn’t work, then I can pay for a professional to come in to take care of the pump.

Does that make sense?

 

[Bannerman]

A mattress pump will typically deliver high volume but low pressure, similar to a vacuum cleaner blower outlet. The best pressure tank fill method will be to use an air compressor equipped with a storage tank utilized for running pneumatic power tools.

 

[BlackDeal]

Thanks @Bannerman

was able to get back at it this morning. I replaced the pressure gauge because the old one was rusted out. I also got a small 120 volt pump. It took a little while, but was able to get the bladder back up to 38 psi. I double checked everything and then hit the switch for the pump........nothing.

Thanks for everyone’s help and advice. I’m glad I went out and spent the money for the air pump before buying a new pressure tank. I’m going to call a well guy to come and install a new pump