Well water results are in...

[FredWurlitzer]

So I finally got around to getting my well water test completed and sent in to NTL. This is from a hose bib in the basement before the treatment system. Here are the results:

Total coliform and E.coli were absent

Aluminum - ND (not detected)
Arsenic - ND
Barium - ND
Cadmium - ND
Calcium - 177.3 mg/L
Chromium - ND
Copper - 0.087 mg/L
Iron - 6.444 mg/L
Lead - 0.003 mg/L
Lithium - 0.020 mg/L
Magnesium - 87.38 mg/L
Manganese 0.067 mg/L
Mercury - ND
Nickel - ND
Potassium - 4.1 mg/L
Selenium - ND
Silica - 16.4 mg/L
Silver - ND
Sodium - 393 mg/L
Strontium - 0.326 mg/L
Uranium - 0.002 mg/L
Zinc - 0.337 mg/L

Alkalinity (total as CaCO3) - 380 mg/L
Hardness - 800 mg/L
pH - 7.2
Total dissolved solids - 1,700 mg/L
Turbidity - 92 NTU

Bromide - ND
Chloride - 760 mg/L
Fluoride - ND
Nitrate - ND
Nitrite - ND
Ortho phosphate - ND
Sulfate - 62.0 mg/L

So this leads me to wonder if my current treatment setup is sufficient and/or efficient enough to handle our well water. Not sure if any of you remember my previous post from months ago but I currently have:

Line from well --> "degasser" or reservoir --> pressure pump --> 60 gallon fiberglass contact tank with chlorine injection --> Culligan "water conditioner" (rebed in 2015) --> Culligan water softener (rebed in 2015)

3 people in the house, we don't drink the water but do have an under the sink RO system. I clearly have a lot of iron, and it seems to be getting through the system, as I can see it build up in the toilet bowl. I'm also seeing hardness deposits which makes me question if the softener is working or set up correctly. If my math is right, 800 mg/L of hardness is about 46-47 grains per gallon, very hard.

I feel the "degasser" or large holding tank (holds at least 200 gallons) presents an interesting situation. This vessel is technically open to air, vents outside, and is not under pressure leading to iron oxidation. When the house pressure goes down, it kicks the pressure pump on which transfers that oxidized/ferric iron from the degasser/reservoir into the contact tank. The degasser also contains a float inside which activates the well pump when it gets low. I have no idea what my well pump flow rate is. I wouldn't mind ditching the Culligan stuff if need be, as it is outrageously expensive. So if you're still with me, here are my questions:

- If I fill were to fill a white bucket with cold tap water, there is slight murky tint to it. Shouldn't the Culligan water conditioner be filtering out the ferric iron and/or sediment after the contact tank? It would be nice to fill my chlorine solution tank with tap water and not my RO water.
(I'm not sure what media is in the conditioner)

-Between oxidizing the iron in the degasser, chlorine contact tank and the water softener, how is iron still getting through and staining?

-What should my 12.5% chlorine solution be dosed at?

-I know how to access the settings on my softener, but not sure if the regeneration time/limit is accurate based on my hardness and usage. I figure 3 people at 75 gal/day is 225 gals/day. Multiply that by the iron content and 46 gpg of hardness and I get 14,400 grains per day that needs to be removed. I have no idea if my softener can handle that.

 

[Taylorjm]

Wow, that stinks. You have a lot of iron and manganese. I don't know why you have the chlorine injection if you don't have any bacteria present, but maybe someone else can chime in on that. I'm guessing your separate tank has something to do with the iron removal. I'm guessing you have the clear water iron (ferrous) and converting it to ferric iron that should be run through a filter before it's pumped to your home. The ferric iron can be filtered out and will turn your filters orange instead of your toilets. I would have thought a dedicated iron filter would have been a better way to go, then a water softener. You have pretty hard water so it would need to be a good sized softener.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

High levels of iron in relatively low pH conditions will often times require the use of an oxidant. Hydrogen peroxide, ozone, sodium hypochlorite, air are all commonly used for this. At your levels I would recommend starting your chlorine injection at 11 ppm. Check your chlorine residual after the contact tank, you should see about 1-2 ppm if you have added enough.

 

[Bannerman]

When the house pressure goes down, it kicks the pressure pump on which transfers that oxidized/ferric iron from the degasser/reservoir into the contact tank.

Perhaps you are not fully understanding how the system is to function, or maybe your system is not configured correctly.

A main function of the atmospheric tank (aka "degasser") is to provide the incoming well water contact with air. Oxygen within the air is used as an initial treatment to oxidize ferrous iron, converting it to ferric iron (rust). Often, a sprayer head is utilized where the incoming flow from the well enters the tank, spraying above the level of water in the tank as the smaller water droplets will have increased and more rapid air contact.

Ferric iron solids will accumulate as sediment at the bottom of the tank leaving much less iron remaining in the water above. The oxidized iron should not be transferred to the contact tank, but only water that is drawn off above the sediment.

Many atmospheric tanks incorporate a cone-shaped bottom to collect sediment, making sediment elimination more thorough by periodically opening a drain valve at the bottom of the cone. Even if your atmospheric tank does not utilize a conical bottom, there should be a means to drain-off sediment. If sediment is not removed frequently enough, it can accumulate and then cause problems when drawn by the pressure pump to the contact tank and other water treatment devices.

 

[ditttohead]

Conical bottom tanks are great for really troubled water. Unfortunately they are expensive and take up a little extra space. Putting a drain on the bottom, and the actual main outlet a couple feet off the bottom can really help in a lot of applications.

 

[FredWurlitzer]

Here is a picture of the atmospheric de-gasser/oxidizer..

 

[FredWurlitzer]

As you can see in the picture above, it is vented to the outside by the PVC pipe that is coming out of the back. The feed line is located at the top right of the picture and is then split into two. A hose bib is located at the bottom left of the tank in this picture. The bib is so close the ground that is it almost impossible to screw a hose onto it.

 

[FredWurlitzer]

High levels of iron in relatively low pH conditions will often times require the use of an oxidant. Hydrogen peroxide, ozone, sodium hypochlorite, air are all commonly used for this. At your levels I would recommend starting your chlorine injection at 11 ppm. Check your chlorine residual after the contact tank, you should see about 1-2 ppm if you have added enough.

Thank you for supplying numbers to shoot for. For 11ppm of chlorine, is there a more common ratio to go by as far as water:chlorine? I found a chlorine dilution calculator online and plugged in my numbers to get 11ppm. It states I should add 0.35 fluid oz to 30 gallons of water to get 11ppm. That doesn't seem like much at all..? Someone at some point wrote on the chlorine lid "2 quarts per fill up", which is way more than 0.35 fl. oz.

Do you feel the 60 gallon contact tank is sufficient given the water composition? It has a "baffle" or "diffuser" to enhance the mixing.

 

[FredWurlitzer]

Perhaps you are not fully understanding how the system is to function, or maybe your system is not configured correctly.

A main function of the atmospheric tank (aka "degasser") is to provide the incoming well water contact with air. Oxygen within the air is used as an initial treatment to oxidize ferrous iron, converting it to ferric iron (rust). Often, a sprayer head is utilized where the incoming flow from the well enters the tank, spraying above the level of water in the tank as the smaller water droplets will have increased and more rapid air contact.

Ferric iron solids will accumulate as sediment at the bottom of the tank leaving much less iron remaining in the water above. The oxidized iron should not be transferred to the contact tank, but only water that is drawn off above the sediment.

Many atmospheric tanks incorporate a cone-shaped bottom to collect sediment, making sediment elimination more thorough by periodically opening a drain valve at the bottom of the cone. Even if your atmospheric tank does not utilize a conical bottom, there should be a means to drain-off sediment. If sediment is not removed frequently enough, it can accumulate and then cause problems when drawn by the pressure pump to the contact tank and other water treatment devices.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I had no idea what the EXACT function of the atmospheric tank was for, which I now know. Your description matches exactly what I have. There are 2 sprayer heads that dispense water into the tank. Does this necessarily need to be vented outside? As you can see in the picture above, there are two small stacks with mesh on the lid that vent up and out into the basement. When the well pump starts to flow, you can really smell the sulfur.

 

[FredWurlitzer]

Conical bottom tanks are great for really troubled water. Unfortunately they are expensive and take up a little extra space. Putting a drain on the bottom, and the actual main outlet a couple feet off the bottom can really help in a lot of applications.

View attachment 58829

I'm wondering if replacing my existing atmospheric tank to something similar would be a good move. I see they come in all different sizes.. I would assume and try to match what I currently have in size?

 

[Bannerman]

It seems sediment has not been flushed for some time ... or maybe never. Unless you have recently removed the lid to inspect for yourself, there could be 3' of sludge in there. As sediment will displace water, whatever reduced space remaining for water will provide less time for iron to be oxidized and settle, leading to higher iron exiting the atmospheric tank than should occur if sediment was cleaned out on a regular basis.

Suggest replacing the existing bottom hose bib with a 1" or larger full bore ball valve. As the bottom drain will only flow by gravity, the drain hose should remain fairly level or sloped downhill if possible. If transparent hose is utilized, you can then easily observe when the discharge begins to run clear.

If there is nowhere to drain directly, buckets may then be needed so you might consider raising the tank onto a platform.

Flushing sediment from the contact tank should be a similar proceedure except the discharge will be under pressure.

 

[Reach4]

60 gallon fiberglass contact tank with chlorine injection

How about a picture of that pressurized contact tank? I think that piece should be the thing that removes most of the rest of the iron, and will have sludge on the bottom. So the atmospheric tank can have sludge. But the contact tank works on iron by turning the dissolved ferrous iron into ferric iron, which falls. I think it may turn H2S into a sulfide which we hope settles also.

In this example, the water rises to the output at the top. Sludge falls to the bottom, and should get blown out when the blowdown valve gets opened.

 

[Bannerman]

As mentioned previously, the atmospheric tank is an initial method to reduce iron. As the iron quantity is excessive, it is likely that not all ferrous iron will be oxidized in one step, so whatever was not oxidized and settled-out in the atmospheric tank, will move on to be oxidized by chlorine. The contact tank is intended to allow sufficient opportunity for oxidation and solids settlement to occur, therefore the expectation will be for the exiting flow to be free of any remaining iron, H2S etc.

As chlorine will be consumed in the oxidation process, I anticipate Ditttohead's advice to ensure 1-2 ppm chlorine residual after the contact tank, is a means to verify there has been sufficient chlorine introduced to provide full oxididation. If there was 0 chlorine residual following the contact tank, then there will be a potential that insufficient chlorine was used and so some ferrous iron may continue to remain in the water exiting the contact tank.

 

[FredWurlitzer]

How about a picture of that pressurized contact tank? I think that piece should be the thing that removes most of the rest of the iron, and will have sludge on the bottom. So the atmospheric tank can have sludge. But the contact tank works on iron by turning the dissolved ferrous iron into ferric iron, which falls. I think it may turn H2S into a sulfide which we hope settles also.

In this example, the water rises to the output at the top. Sludge falls to the bottom, and should get blown out when the blowdown valve gets opened.

Here is a pic of the contact tank. Is 60 gallons sufficient? I flush the sediment out about once a month. This is a top feed and top draw model.

 

[FredWurlitzer]

As mentioned previously, the atmospheric tank is an initial method to reduce iron. As the iron quantity is excessive, it is likely that not all ferrous iron will be oxidized in one step, so whatever was not oxidized and settled-out in the atmospheric tank, will move on to be oxidized by chlorine. The contact tank is intended to allow sufficient opportunity for oxidation and solids settlement to occur, therefore the expectation will be for the exiting flow to be free of any remaining iron, H2S etc.

As chlorine will be consumed in the oxidation process, I anticipate Ditttohead's advice to ensure 1-2 ppm chlorine residual after the contact tank, is a means to verify there has been sufficient chlorine introduced to provide full oxididation. If there was 0 chlorine residual following the contact tank, then there will be a potential that insufficient chlorine was used and so some ferrous iron may continue to remain in the water exiting the contact tank.

I currently have more than 1-2ppm of residual chlorine coming out of the contact tank. I keep diluting it every so often with RO water to hopefully achieve the 1-2ppm residual.

I’m still confused on the dilution. Why would someone write “2 quarts per fill up” on the lid, but the dilution calculator I used states 0.35 fluid ounces to achieve 11ppm of solution. That’s a huge difference. The only thing I can think of is that the 2 quarts was utilizing a weaker percentage of sodium hypochlorite.

 

[FredWurlitzer]

So if ferric or oxidized iron gets passed the contact tank, does the Culligan carbon water conditioner filter it out?

Same with ferrous iron.. if it’s not all oxidized, the softener should address some of that up to a certain ppm, correct?

I’m just trying to learn as much as I can so I can make informed decisions.

 

[Bannerman]

Why would someone write “2 quarts per fill up” on the lid,

Where is chlorine being drawn from before it is injected?

Perhaps 2 quarts of chlorine is to be added to the container that the chlorine is drawn from before injection, with the remaining container space to be filled with water. By occasionally adding RO water, it sounds as if you are diluting the chlorine but continuing to believe you shouldn't need to do so.

Describe the container the chlorine is drawn from as well as the chlorine strength and the chlorine injection method and settings.

Does that contact tank have a drain port at the bottom? If not, describe how the sediment is removed.

 

[ditttohead]

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/152-153

Check out the baffled contact tank. These have a 3.6 factor making them far moe effective than non baffled tanks. We stock and sell both but the baffled tanks are probably 90% of our sales compared to the non baffled tanks. Contact/retention tanks have a blow down in the bottom to help remove the sludge.

 

[FredWurlitzer]

Where is chlorine being drawn from before it is injected?

Perhaps 2 quarts of chlorine is to be added to the container that the chlorine is drawn from before injection, with the remaining container space to be filled with water. By occasionally adding RO water, it sounds as if you are diluting the chlorine but continuing to believe you shouldn't need to do so.

Describe the container the chlorine is drawn from as well as the chlorine strength and the chlorine injection method and settings.

Does that contact tank have a drain port at the bottom? If not, describe how the sediment is removed.

That is exactly what I’m doing.. trying to dilute my solution tank with RO water until I get 1-2ppm AFTER the contact tank but BEFORE the carbon filter. I’ve attached a picture of the solution tank as well as the pump. Not sure on the “percent stroke” setting of the pump either..

 

[Reach4]

That is exactly what I’m doing.. trying to dilute my solution tank with RO water until I get 1-2ppm AFTER the contact tank but BEFORE the carbon filter. I’ve attached a picture of the solution tank as well as the pump. Not sure on the “percent stroke” setting of the pump either..

You might see discussions of a "contact tank". That gives the chlorine longer to act on its targets. Some are better than others. With your contact tank, you are injecting, and removing the chlorine a short time/distance later.