Well water and pump short cycling conundrum

[Hydrocynus]

Hello all, hope your Sunday is going well. I live in S. Florida and I have a 4" well equipped with a J-Class 1 HP 20 gpm pump set at 80'feet (well is 114 feet, casing ends at 95 ft), PVC sch 40 1-1/4" diam. The pressure tank is a budget Flexcon Defiance 20 gal with bladder set at 38PSI. The pressure switch is set at 40 -60. Installation by a pro on February 2016.

I had short cycling in the pump that destroyed the 5 years old pressure switch. I changed the switch with a new one and it still was cycling fast. So, I emptied the tank, check the pressure in the bladder and it was low at 14 psi, so I inflated at 38 psi and deflated it fully to make sure there was no water blowing out. I saw none. So, I inflated at 38PSI.

The short cycling continued. Putting my hand on the pipe before the one way check valve showed that the water was flushing back into the well creating a hissing noise at the well's riser. So, I changed the one way check valve.

Unfortunately, the pump still cycle short... although not as short as before, so the check valve sorted some issues.

To try to investigate more:
- it takes 8-10 seconds to go from 40 PSI to 60 PSI (gauge is brand new, as I changed that too). By looking at the specs. For a J-class 20gpm 1HP set at 80', I should really get 16 gpm. So, 8.5 seconds should fill the tank with about 2.3 gallons of water. I understand that the tank should have about 5 gallons of useable volume.

- when I empty the tank from 60 psi to 40 psi, I get about 1.2 gallons of water and when I drain it completely, I get about 4.8 gallons.

Here are my questions:
Do you think that my pressure tank is faulty?

Do you think the guy put an oversized pump for my pressure tank? I will try to get a hold of him and see what model of pump I have. If so, I will likely need a much larger pressure tank.

For a tank, I probably will go with the brand names as the water in Florida is pretty bad. So, either an Amtrol or a better (Challenger) Flexcon tank. Probably 8o gallons or above. Because my pump is really oversized for my 3 acres property (we do irrigate), maybe add a Cycle Stop Valve?

Anything else I am missing?

Thank you a lot. ... Oh, and not sure it is related by my less than a year Navien exterior water heater blew its top off (we are on LP)! I have contacted the plumber who installed it. We did not draw hot water during my testing and repairs.

 

[Reach4]

The short cycling continued. Putting my hand on the pipe before the one way check valve showed that the water was flushing back into the well creating a hissing noise at the well's riser. So, I changed the one way check valve.

The check valve should be down at the pump.

Do you have a well seal, where the water pipe goes down the casing from the to, or a pitless adapter (which would be rare in Florida)?

Do you think the guy put an oversized pump for my pressure tank?

Yes A J-Class 1 HP 20 gpm pump set at 80'feet would seem to be very oversized. A 7 to 10 gpm pump would be appropriate. A 20 gallon pressure tank for a 7 gpm tank is undersized, and for a 10 gpm pump, you you would want a 44 gallon or bigger tank. The exception would be if you had a CSV. For 20 gpm pump, I would go with a Well-X-302 or the bigger WX-350 119 gallon one. This seems like it would be a good application for a CSV, which would work with your 20 gallon tank. That will tame your 20 gallon pump.

Is your tank good? I would not have expected the precharge to fall so much in 4 years, but it still may be ok.

For a tank, I probably will go with the brand names as the water in Florida is pretty bad. So, either an Amtrol or a better (Challenger) Flexcon tank. Probably 8o gallons or above. Because my pump is really oversized for my 3 acres property (we do irrigate), maybe add a Cycle Stop Valve?

Amtrol is a company that has many grades of pressure tanks. Water Worker is built to a lower price point, and Well-X-Trol is built to a higher standard.

All in all, you seem like a good candidate for
https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/pump-control-valves/products/csv1a
That would let you use your existing 20 gpm pressure tank. I would put that where the topside check valve is today.

Maybe there is a better choice, but your pressures seem to work.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Hydrocynus]

The check valve should be down at the pump.

Do you have a well seal, where the water pipe goes down the casing from the to, or a pitless adapter (which would be rare in Florida)?


Yes AJ-Class 1 HP 20 gpm pump set at 80'feet would be very oversized. A 7 to 10 gpm pump would be appropriate. A 20 gallon pressure tank for a 7 gpm tank is undersized, and for a 10 gpm pump, you you would want a 44 gallon or bigger tank. The exception would be if you had a CSV. For 20 gpm pump, I would go with a Well-X-302 or the bigger WX-350 119 gallon one. This seems like it would be a good application for a CSV, which would work with your 20 gallon tank.

Is your tank good? I would not have expected the precharge to fall so much in 4 years, but it still may be ok.

Amtrol is a company that has many grades of pressure tanks. Water Worker is built to a lower price point, and Well-X-Trol is built to a higher standard.

I did not address all of your points, but this is a start.

Thanks for your answers and to have read my long post.
There is a seal where the water pipe goes down the casing. I can still hear a slight hiss when the water is drawn though. This is also where the relief valve is located.

The J class does not come with a one way check valve and I do not recall seeing one on the 1-1/4" pipe when the guy lowered the pump in the casing (that was 5 years ago though). The one way check valve is just after the pipe exit the seal. There is a 90 elbow and then the one way check valve is glued onto the 1-1/4" pipe.

This is what I thought about the pump. Franklin has several models though but all 20gpm 1hp point to about 16gpm for a 1HP set at 80ft with a 60psi cut off.

Thanks for the tank suggestions. I am indeed looking at the models you mentioned (although not as large as I did not know I have a pump that powerful until I checked the invoice). I have contacted the company and asked them about the exact model. I did not pay much for the install (about 1000 bucks for all parts and labor).

I am really thinking about the CSV (even though it appear much controversial). For $200 it might be worth the investment.

I do not know if the tank is good. The bladder seems to keep its pressure, no water coming out of it and also it does not show any exterior signs of rusts. I also looked underneath (some erosion build up dirt had to be excavated) and no rust whatsover. It does not mean that inside it is not a mess... however, my iron levels are zero (I have my own lab, aquatic ecologist/researcher), so it does not appear to have rusted out inside. Looks like I need a bigger tank though.

Water worker is indeed made by Amstrol but apparently, the fittings (cast iron vs. ss) and thinner gauge might not be a good option. The well water has low redox and sulfur oxidizing bacteria which will love to eat the steel. I actually was thinking about the Pentair wellmate. No rust possible and fittings are all plastic. I read that the bladder (which is serviceable) is the weakness though.

Keep it coming!
Cheers.


PS. Navien and the plumber will take care of the water heater. That was scary that it blew up like that today. The unit was installed about months ago but it was sitting there until a few weeks ago (new construction). Navien techs do work on week ends. So good thus far.

 

[Reach4]

The J class does not come with a one way check valve and I do not recall seeing one on the 1-1/4" pipe when the guy lowered the pump in the casing (that was 5 years ago though). The one way check valve is just after the pipe exit the seal. There is a 90 elbow and then the one way check valve is glued onto the 1-1/4" pipe.

OK. There should be a check valve down at the pump either in the pump, just above the pump, or both. Here is the problem with no check valve. When the pump cuts off, water will fall backwards through the pump, and there will be a big vacuum up top. When the pump turns on, the slug of water will come up and bang against the check valve.

I don't know how to account for your hearing water running. Could there be a hole in the drop pipe? The reason I asked about the pitless, as unlikely as that was in Florida, that has an o-ring that could have failed. A nice thing about a pitless, besides the freezing protection, is that you could lift the well cap and look.

Read up on the CSV, but note that the search box above won't look for works of less than four characters.

Is there a bang at the check valve now when the pump turns on?

 

[Reach4]

I do not know if the tank is good. The bladder seems to keep its pressure, no water coming out of it and also it does not show any exterior signs of rusts.

If it does not lose air precharge in a month, that pretty much means it is still good. It would be a pretty good size for use with a CSV.
Normally you would have posted into the https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?forums/pumps-and-tanks-well-forum-blog-water-is-life.4/ forum, where Valveman would have more likely seen it. You may find this thread has moved there.

 

[Hydrocynus]

OK. There should be a check valve down at the pump either in the pump, just above the pump, or both. Here is the problem with no check valve. When the pump cuts off, water will fall backwards through the pump, and there will be a big vacuum up top. When the pump turns on, the slug of water will come up and bang against the check valve.

I don't know how to account for your hearing water running. Could there be a hole in the drop pipe? The reason I asked about the pitless, as unlikely as that was in Florida, that has an o-ring that could have failed. A nice thing about a pitless, besides the freezing protection, is that you could lift the well cap and look.

Read up on the CSV, but note that the search box above won't look for works of less than four characters.

Is there a bang at the check valve now when the pump turns on?

Thanks Reach4.
I will take a picture to show you what the seal on top looks like. I do hear a hissing noise when the pump pumps water. I do not hear any hissing noise when it stops. I think I now recollect that he screwed a brass one way check valve just above the pump.
Before I changed the plastic one-way check valve I could feel the water flushing back to the well by putting my hand on the pipe. This does not happen anymore. Most important, when I isolated the pipe section between the pump and the pressure tank, there is no loss in pressure (at least over 10 minutes). So, I believe that the check valves are sound but this does not explain why I had water loss between the two check valves before I changed the one on the surface (but the fact that the pressure holds over time, let me think that the pipe is not perforated inside the casing).

Now, where should I place the CSV? I read, on top of the second check valve but this valve is just a schedule 40 valve. Are these CSV valve durable with my well water (high hardness, low redox, sulfides in the 2.5-3.3 ppm, no ferrous iron, Sp conductance in the 750 µS/cm). Those sulfur bacteria eat iron as you know.
Better to order from CSV directly too right? Amazon purchases seem to carry no warranties.

By looking at their website, it seems that the best for me would be to get their CSV125 with a pressure of 60 psi and then set my cut off at the switch at 70 PSI? buy the CSV125 with a pressure of 50 PSI and the switch set at 60 PSI (the way it is right now). Am I correct? The pump is outside and there is nothing around in a radius of 15 feet.


Cheers.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks Reach4.
I will take a picture to show you what the seal on top looks like. I do hear a hissing noise when the pump pumps water. I do not hear any hissing noise when it stops. I think I now recollect that he screwed a brass one way check valve just above the pump.

That would be nice.

A picture of the well seal is not needed.

CSV goes in the path to the pressure tank and pressure switch (pressure tank and pressure switch should be together). Often it would be right before the pressure tank. It has to before the water tees off and goes elsewhere, such as to a yard hydrant or other building.

Yes, better to order directly.

The one I linked to is adjustable. Look around that site for various info.

 

[WorthFlorida]

..........By looking at their website, it seems that the best for me would be to get their CSV125 with a pressure of 60 psi and then set my cut off at the switch at 70 PSI? buy the CSV125 with a pressure of 50 PSI and the switch set at 60 PSI (the way it is right now). Am I correct? The pump is outside and there is nothing around in a radius of 15 feet...............Cheers.

Questions, has this short cycling been going on from day one or just recently? Does it happen when no water is in use or only when you are drawing water or both.

You can call them to ask what is the best unit to purchase. The designer and owner of the CSV is named the " valveman" on this forum. You'll see he posts in the Pump Tank and Well forum.

 

[Valveman]

Thanks guys! A 1HP, 20 GPM pump can only build about 110 PSI max. The only "controversial" things you hear about CSV's are from people who don't have a clue how they work or how good they are for your pump and system. The CSV1A is exactly what you need and guarantee it to work. The CSV1256 doesn't work will with iron or bacteria in the water, but the CSV1A can handle it fine.

 

[Sarg]

My CSV1A the day before installation ........... No regrets.

 

[Hydrocynus]

valveman, thanks for your answer. I am about to buy the unit from the CSV website with the 5 year warranty. I will mount the unit just after the elbow coming out of the riser. My pipe is schedule 40 PVC (thick wall).
So, I just need two PVC 1-1/4" straight joints with one end to be glued onto the pipe and the other end which will be threaded?

 

[Reach4]

The short cycling continued. Putting my hand on the pipe before the one way check valve showed that the water was flushing back into the well creating a hissing noise at the well's riser. So, I changed the one way check valve.

It would interesting to have a combination vacuum pressure gauge on the upstream side of that check valve. Would the vacuum be maintained, or would it go away with time? If there was no above above-water hole in the downpipe, then a missing or failed check valve down the hole would cause the vacuum to be maintained. If the vacuum went away, then there would be a hole. That hole could have been put there on purpose for use with a "conventional" galvanized pressure tank. Did the old topside check valve have a Schrader valve on it by chance? Or did either check valve have a plug that could be removed and replaced with something else?

In any case, pulling the pump would be your longer term solution. To use a precharged pressure tank, you would remove the bleeder hole, if any, or put a working check valve above the pump. For now, the topside check valve is a good workaround.

The advantages of having the only check valve(s) at the pump are to keep the pipe pressurized so that nothing gets sucked in, and to avoid potential banging/slamming.

 

[Hydrocynus]

Hello all, I wanted to give you an update. The CSV valve has been working very well since I installed it. No more short cycling. I took the extra warranty, so I hope it will outlast the warranty.
As a follow up, my well pump is now 6 years old and I know that I am probably rearing its end of life. We have 3 acres, so we are using it for irrigation of our edible garden (about 1 acre, using drop irrigation). I am copying the description of my pump set up so that you can help me select a better pump for my needs. My understanding was that it was too large for my needs. So, right now, I am thinking about a 220V 4" 3/4HP pump. What GPM should I aim for? Which brand do you guys prefer? I like the red lion ones. Thanks for your input. I want to have the extra pump in my pod when the J-class craps out.

"I live in S. Florida and I have a 4" well equipped with a J-Class 1 HP 20 gpm pump set at 80'feet (well is 114 feet, casing ends at 95 ft), PVC sch 40 1-1/4" diam. The pressure tank is a budget Flexcon Defiance 20 gal with bladder set at 38PSI. The pressure switch is set at 40 -60. Installation by a pro on February 2016."

 

[Reach4]

My understanding was that it was too large for my needs. So, right now, I am thinking about a 220V 4" 3/4HP pump. What GPM should I aim for?

What are the specs on your emitters, and how many do you want to be able to support?

Actually, having the pressure gauge before and after the CSV probably gives some good clues.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/pumpproducts/pdf/535424_2_Franklin+JClass+SandHandler+Catalog.pdf

Suppose you had a pressure gauge before the CSV, and you showed 100 psi. That would be 231 psi. Also assume the surface of the well water was 40 ft below the gauge. Then 231+40 would be 271.

Look at the graph on "page 16" actual page 13 of 18. Oops. that pump won't give you 271 ft of head, so we know that the Then the 231+40 pretend numbers do not apply to you. So my plan to deduce your gpm draw would need different numbers.

What is clear to me that we are not certain that your pump is not sized correctly. If you are only putting out 5 gpm, it is not a good pump choice. If you are putting out 15 gallons per minute, then it is a good size.

Trivia: Franklin bought the Jacuzzi pump business. That is where the J in J-class comes from.

 

[Valveman]

Hello all, I wanted to give you an update. The CSV valve has been working very well since I installed it. No more short cycling. I took the extra warranty, so I hope it will outlast the warranty.
As a follow up, my well pump is now 6 years old and I know that I am probably rearing its end of life. We have 3 acres, so we are using it for irrigation of our edible garden (about 1 acre, using drop irrigation). I am copying the description of my pump set up so that you can help me select a better pump for my needs. My understanding was that it was too large for my needs. So, right now, I am thinking about a 220V 4" 3/4HP pump. What GPM should I aim for? Which brand do you guys prefer? I like the red lion ones. Thanks for your input. I want to have the extra pump in my pod when the J-class craps out.

"I live in S. Florida and I have a 4" well equipped with a J-Class 1 HP 20 gpm pump set at 80'feet (well is 114 feet, casing ends at 95 ft), PVC sch 40 1-1/4" diam. The pressure tank is a budget Flexcon Defiance 20 gal with bladder set at 38PSI. The pressure switch is set at 40 -60. Installation by a pro on February 2016."

The fact that your pump was cycling shows that it is too large for the zones you were using. But adding the CSV makes the pump act like a smaller pump when needed, so there is no more cycling. However, you still have a 20 GPM pump if you ever need 20 GPM. It is always better to have a pump that is slightly too large than one that is slightly too small, especially with the CSV installed. That way you can have as large a pump as you may need for a few peak demands, and the CSV will make it work a little drip system when needed just as well. It really won't save you much to switch from a 1HP to a 3/4HP. You might also be surprised how long that pump will last. Nothing can be done about the previous six years of damage from cycling, but adding the CSV before it was too late may get you another 20 years. Might be another 20 minutes also. You can never tell, so you just run a submersible until it quits and then change it out. Keeping a spare is problematic. The pump can sit on the shelf for a long time, but not the motor.

 

[Reach4]

You can never tell, so you just run a submersible until it quits and then change it out. Keeping a spare is problematic. The pump can sit on the shelf for a long time, but not the motor.

There has been talk of storing the pump and motor in a section of water-filled pipe for storage. That way the motor stays liquid-filled.

I don't find the thread. There may have been a suggestion to add some bleach initially, and then sealing the pipe.