Weird well system behavior

[Radu Gafitanu]

Hello,
I am new to this forum and I need help with (what is to me) an unusual problem.
This year I was opening the pool and I had to add some water. I dropped the garden hose in the pool like every other year. Shortly after that the pressure in the house dropped to almost nothing. Water was coming out of the hose in the pool but it wasn't the flow or pressure that I was used to.
The gauge was showing between 15 and 20 PSI. The pump was running but the noise was different. Before, the pump action had a continuous clicking noise (probably from the check valve), now it was a hissing. Turning the water off would bring the pressure back up. The cycle switch works between 40 and 60 PSI.
What is weird is that any other normal faucet or shower flow does not bring this behavior. Also if I attach the garden nozzle to the hose the pressure is back up. Of course if I open 3 faucets I get the same drop.
I have a Franklin 2 wire 1 phase 1 HP pump in the well. I checked the resistance and it is 3.4 ohms which appears to be correct for the motor and 300 ft. of wire. The current draw when the pump is running is 9 Amps which also appears to be correct.
The tank has about 38 PSI and it sounds empty at the top and full at the bottom.
When I turn off the hose (or the faucets) the pressure quickly gets up to about 40 PSI then in about 3 minutes to 60 PSI.
It appears that both the pump motor and the tank are OK. I am not sure about the check valve right before the switch.
Has anybody seen something like this?
Thank you.
Radu

 

[Valveman]

Filling a pool with a hose is the biggest killer of well pumps. That "clicking" you are used to hearing is the pump cycling on and off, which isn't good. When you have a 10 GPM pump and are running a 3 GPM faucet, the extra water causes the tank to fill and drain as the pump cycles on and off. Over time this will damage the motor. Most likely the loss of water was from the overload in the motor tripping out. They will automatically reset in a minute or two, and water will seem to just magically start up again. You were probably just seeing the last of the tank drain when you notice the low water flow. Then the overload reset and you had water again.

There is nothing you can do about the damage cycling has already done to your pump. All you can do is eliminate the cycling and keep from causing even more damage. To eliminate the cycling you need to fill the pool with three hoses, so the pump doesn't shut off. Or you can use a Cycle Stop Valve to stop the cycling, and you can fill the pool with only one hose if you want.

 

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[Radu Gafitanu]

Valveman, let me clarify the "clicking". I was hearing it right at (or around) the switch in the basement which is 300 ft. away from the well/pump. And it is a very fast clicking similar to when you had a stick into your bicycle's wheel spokes making a clicking/clacking sound as you were cycling. And this clicking was present all the time while the pump is running right from when I had a new pump installed 3-4 years ago. I believe I had this clicking also before that. I thought it was the switch or the check valve.
From your post I would do a whole cycle: drain fast - switch on @40 PSI - close faucets - get pressure to 60 PSI, all while watching the ampmeter to catch any cycling or overload through changes in current draw.
If I understand correctly the pump system cannot keep up with the unrestricted flow of water through a hose. It would explain why when I connect the garden nozzle the problem appears to go away.
Thank you.

 

[Reach4]

Valveman, let me clarify the "clicking". I was hearing it right at (or around) the switch in the basement which is 300 ft. away from the well/pump. And it is a very fast clicking similar to when you had a stick into your bicycle's wheel spokes making a clicking/clacking sound as you were cycling. And this clicking was present all the time while the pump is running right from when I had a new pump installed 3-4 years ago. I believe I had this clicking also before that. I thought it was the switch or the check valve.

Be sure that clicking is not the pressure switch. You can put your hand on the cover to feel for clicking. You can lift the cover off of the pressure switch to watch the contacts. I think you should check with some urgency.

The pressure switch should see the same pressure that the pressure tank sees. The best way to do that is to have the pressure switch connected very close to the pressure tank.

If the pressure switch is ticking, and it is connected very close to the pressure tank, then there is a problem with the pressure tank.

 

[Radu Gafitanu]

Right now there is no clicking anymore. Since I tried to add to the pool with the hose I have only hissing, no clicking. I thought the clicking was normal since I was hearing it for almost 10 years while the pump was running.
What I cannot explain is the sudden drop of pressure from 40 PSI to 20 PSI when the switch cuts in to turn the pump on and it stays there unless I turn off the hose/faucets.

Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

Right now there is no clicking anymore. Since I tried to add to the pool with the hose I have only hissing, no clicking. I thought the clicking was normal since I was hearing it for almost 10 years while the pump was running.
What I cannot explain is the sudden drop of pressure from 40 PSI to 20 PSI when the switch cuts in to turn the pump on and it stays there unless I turn off the hose/faucets.

I presume you have no filter before the pressure gauge.

How about a photo showing the input to the pressure tank, pressure gauge, and the pressure switch. Since you probably have some well work in your future, let's figure out what else you might want done at the same time. Also, while we ara assessing things, how big is your well? If 5 inch ID or bigger and can clear the pitless, it would usually be best to also have a flow inducer sleeve on the pump.

I suspect the pump is failing. Less likely in MA is that you have a 10 to 15 gpm pump and the water level in the well has dropped to where the pump can only pump 3 or 4 gpm. If you were in AZ, that would have been a more significant possibility.

 

[Valveman]

The tank should not "drain fast". That would mean the tank is bad and is what is causing the clicking. The pump really should keep up with a hose, nozzle or not. Yes use an amp meter or just watch the contacts in the pressure switch to see what is going on.

 

[Radu Gafitanu]

Attached is a photo of the system. This morning I got the hose with a nozzle back in the pool and I had a toilet bowl filling up and a sink running briefly at the same time. A minute after I went into the basement and the pump was running approaching 63 PSI when it stopped. Maybe it's back to normal. Maybe I should try that unrestricted hose cycle while measuring the amps drawn and time it with pictures.

 

[Valveman]

Did the pump shut off at 63 because the pressure switch points opened up like they should? Take the cover off the pressure switch where you can see the points when this happens. But don't touch the hot wires inside. An overload in the motor will usually trip when the pump is cycling on and off like when filling the pool.

 

[Reach4]

Attached is a photo of the system.

The pressure switch and pressure tank are plenty close.

Having valves on the path to the pressure switch and pressure gauge is new to me. I guess it would let you change the gauge hot. For the pressure switch, I guess you could change that after turning off the pump but not have to drain the system.

The only potential problem I note is the check valve coming in, and the problem with that is normally not going to be clicking. But I guess it could be. Usually you would be better off not having a check valve there, but MA has rules requiring the installer to put one there. Could it have been a restriction with some kind of failure mode? As I picture it, the easiest access would be to cut the incoming copper pipe, and use a repair coupling after gutting the check valve. I am not a pro. There is a check valve, or possibly two, at the submersible pump.

 

[Radu Gafitanu]

Yes, the contacts in the switch lifted at 63.

 

[Valveman]

When you open a faucet, how quick does it drop to 43 and come on?

 

[Radu Gafitanu]

If I open only one faucet it takes about 3-4 minutes to get to 43.

 

[Valveman]

Then your tank is not water logged. Got to figure out where the clicking it coming from.

 

[Radu Gafitanu]

The clicking is not coming anymore. It stopped after I tried to fill the pool with the hose (no nozzle). I thought at that time that the clicking was normal, coming maybe from either the pressure switch or the check valve. I did watch it and it wasn't the electrical contacts clicking.
I think I am getting it now. If my pump is 10GPM and the hose is 15 GPM then the pump will never catch up with it, the pressure will be low and the hose will give me the 10 GPM coming from the pump. I am not sure what my 1HP 1phase 2 wire Franklin pump has as rated flow.

 

[Valveman]

You are correct. And the check valve can be rattling, especially when the hose is wide open, but I have never heard it called clicking.

 

[Radu Gafitanu]

Hard to describe that noise, I guess you can call it rattle too. It sounded metallic exactly like a bike's wheel spokes hitting a stick (continuously).

 

[Valveman]

Next time you hear it put your hand on the check valve.

 

[Radu Gafitanu]

I didn't even know I had a check valve there until yesterday. There is no marking (flow or anything else) on it.

 

[shane21]

It sounds to me like you may possibly have a failed check valve there by the tank. Sometimes when a check valve fails it will allow the poppet in there to travel farther than intended, and even far enough to almost seal off the outlet side of the check valve - severely restricting flow and, like all flow restriction, causing a hissing noise. I would start there if I were you.

To determine if you are exceeding the flow rate capability of the pump in the well you should be able to measure the flow rate coming out of the hose and determine approximately how many gallons per minute (GPM) is exiting the hose. Then compare that to the performance curve of your well pump.