Water softener Woes

[DIYMissus]

We have home purchased one year ago with an ~15 year old 64K water softener The softener produces soft water after regen ~ 1 gpg but after only a day its at 38 gpg. There are only two of us with ~ 100 gal /day usage total. I have purchased the HAch 5B test.
Water from the drilled well I was showing ~120 gpg ( I had to dilute the sample with 0 gpg water) I thought that the kit was no good so I sent a sample away for testing straight from the well the result showed 120 gpg 2.4 ppm iron 0 manganese and sulfur. My questions are is it worth getting new resin? or do we need a larger system? With the iron level is a separate iron remover a good idea? We also have an RO system for drinking water . Any guidance will be appreciated. We are accomplished DIYers I don't feel replacing the system ourselves will be too difficult once we know what to get. Thank you

 

[Reach4]

I think you need to regenerate your two cubic ft of resin about every day. Each night the softener checks to see if there is enough capacity left to make it through the next day. If there is not enough, the softener regenerates.

Due to high hardness compensation and iron, set H to 205.

You would be a good candidate for a dual tank system. One controller. One brine tank. The fleck offering I know of is the 9100SXT.

You also would benefit from a backwashing iron filter.That would save some load on the softener as well as not having nearly as much cleaning to do. Backwashing iron filters take more gpm than softeners. So you would want to know what your pump can provide.

Do you use iron out, citric acid, or what?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DIYMissus]

Reach 4 Thank you ! We use softener pellets w iron removal and "iron out" powder. Will citric acid do the same thing? I'm sorry but what is this " H" The dial only goes to 120 this being an older system is mechanical and I doubt that it can check itself . Based on the settings it regens after it has processed X amount of gallons . It had been set for about 900 gallons which is a little over a week for us. The former owners notes 15 years ago was 38 gpg and 6 -8 ppm iron apparently that's changed over time.

 

[Reach4]

Reach 4 Thank you ! We use softener pellets w iron removal and "iron out" powder. Will citric acid do the same thing? I'm sorry but what is this " H" The dial only goes to 120 this being an older system is mechanical and I doubt that it can check itself . Based on the settings it regens after it has processed X amount of gallons . It had been set for about 900 gallons which is a little over a week for us. The former owners notes 15 years ago was 38 gpg and 6 -8 ppm iron apparently that's changed over time.

What system? Econominder?

Iron Out does not smell that good. Citric acid smells good, and Ditttohead likes it a lot. Citric acid is the main additive to iron-handling salt. I have not used it myself.

 

[Otto Mation]

How much citric acid would you recommend? You can by a 10 lb. bag for $22. I am looking at adding a bit to my brine tank every once in a while just to keep my resin tank tuned up. Any reason why one would not want to do this?

 

[Reach4]

How much citric acid would you recommend? You can by a 10 lb. bag for $22. I am looking at adding a bit to my brine tank every once in a while just to keep my resin tank tuned up. Any reason why one would not want to do this?

These may help:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/594484/
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/589855/
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/552057/

 

[DIYMissus]

What system? Econominder?

Iron Out does not smell that good. Citric acid smells good, and Ditttohead likes it a lot. Citric acid is the main additive to iron-handling salt. I have not used it myself.

Its a Fleck from 2002 not sure the model but it looks a lot like the 5600. I'm thinking that we are better off replacing with a dual tank system ?

 

[ditttohead]

Yes, twin alternating would be ideal for your application and an iron reduction system. I would still go with a good sized twin alternating unit. More resin is better.

Citric acid is nice in case something goes wrong during the regeneration, no real worries if you drink water with citric acid in it accidentally. It is basically lemonade.

An iron reduction system would be highly recommended since it will tank a considerable load off of your already overworked softener.

 

[Bannerman]

it looks a lot like the 5600

Although a twin tank softener would be preferable for the excessive hardness, and a dedicated iron reduction system for the iron, perhaps your current system may be optimized to perform better than it currently does, if even temporarily.

If the control valve is a Fleck 5600 Econominder, it will likely have a rear plastic cover held in place with 2 screws. Behind that cover should be a salt adjustment cam. What salt amount is the pointer set to?

The salt setting will determine the amount of capacity that will be regenerated. The regenerated capacity will dictate how many gallons of water that may be softened before regeneration will be needed. For instance, a 2 ft3 softener regenerated with 16 lbs salt (common) will restore 48,000 grains capacity which at 205 gpg compensated hardness, works out to a maximum 234 gallons before regeneration will be required.

Using 205 gpg hardness X 100 gallons/day = 20,500 grains/day consumed. If the 16 lb salt setting is utilized, there will be insufficient capacity remaining in 2 ft3 for a 1-day reserve, so your softener will need to regenerate every 2 days even if the full number of gallons available has not been consumed.

As your softener's total resin capacity has been exhausted, the total resin capacity will now need to be restored by performing a 1X regeneration using 30-40 lbs of salt. This high salt regeneration should incorporate resin cleaning using a few lbs of citric acid or another acid type resin cleaner.

 

[DIYMissus]

Bannerman
thank you I'm away currently but will check this weekend the former owner left all the manuals fortunately. I curious how you got 205 for compensated hardness? Isn't it gpg + (ppm iron et al x4) ? 120 + (2.4 x 4) = ~ 130? I think the 17 yr old resin is toast we use salt plus iron remover and we have been feeding it iron out by the pound ( in the brine well) and ran a couple extra regen cycles and the water is soft immediately after (~1 gpg) but still ~38 gpg the very next day,?


Has anyone used softenerparts.com? They have been very responsive on email. Their prices seem competitive and they say its all high quality ( don't they all though?)

 

[Reach4]

I used 5 for iron. Also used high-hardness compensation.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....0-sxt-programming-settings.60651/#post-450189 and also http://media.wattswater.com/F-WQ-EngineeringGuide.pdf page 11 of 40

How do other wells in your area compare?

If you get an iron filter, those have higher backwashing gpm requirements than softeners. For a 10 inch diameter Katalox Light filter, that would be about 7 or 8 gpm. That number would vary with the diameter squared.

 

[DIYMissus]

I have asked about the water our neighbors have but most people just call a water company and don't know. The area seems to be known for hard water the house I'm asking about is my new to us house north of Kingston Ontario

1.5 x 120 gpg = 180
2.4 ppm x 5 = 12 total 192 compensated hardness close enough?

 

[Reach4]

I have asked about the water our neighbors have but most people just call a water company and don't know. The area seems to be known for hard water the house I'm asking about is my new to us house north of Kingston Ontario

1.5 x 120 gpg = 180
2.4 ppm x 5 = 12 total 192 compensated hardness close enough?

Sounds good. I think I did (180+10)*1.5. Your way is probably the way it should be.

So still, you probably should be regenerating each night if you are home using water.

In marketing speak, they call 1 cuft 32000 grains. Just think of it as a convention, but don't calculate with that. You could use twin tanks with 2 or 3 cuft each. Some would call a 9100 with two 3-cuft tanks a dual 96kgrain unit, and others would call it a 192 kgrain unit.

Maybe you could get a bulk deal on salt.

 

[Bannerman]

Isn't it gpg + (ppm iron et al x4) ? 120 + (2.4 x 4) = ~ 130?

The usual multiplier is 5 grains hardness equivalent for each 1 ppm iron. I also have seen 4 grains per ppm recommended but that may be only suitable when the resin is new, before any iron has accumulated on the resin.

In addition to hardness and iron is inefficiency when there is high hardness which Reach4 had calculated to arrive at a total compensated hardness value of 205 gpg. There may be other competing ions present (ex: manganese) which are also consuming softening capacity. Those along with other qualities such as pH, should be specified in your lab test report.

A softener will typically contain a higher total capacity than the usable capacity that is programmed to be utilized and regenerated on a regular basis. Because your softener's total resin capacity has been exhausted, any intended capacity above the amount being regenerated, will not be available to assist to prevent or at least reduce hardness leakage through the softener. The recommendation to regenerate with 30-40 lbs salt is so the entire 2 ft3 of resin will be restored to work to remove hardness and iron, not just the portion of total capacity that is regularly being regenerated. Even with restoring the resin's total capacity, it appears the current 900 gallons capacity is not realistic or achievable, so depending on the salt setting, the capacity setting will need to be reduced to 200 - 250 gallons. Because you use 100 gals/day, programming (edit: 180) gallons capacity should ensure regeneration every 2nd night.

Your resin may require replacement as you anticipate, but my suggestions are intended to attempt to make what you have, perform as well as possible, even if that will be only until you have opportunity to replace your existing softener with a new softener and iron reduction system which is properly sized and configured for your water conditions and usage.

 

[DIYMissus]

bannerman thank you it is now set at about 250 gal between regens I will try a super regen to get it to limp along until we replace it. No manganese or sulfur ph 7.4

reach4 thanks again!

Before spending this much what does everyone think of this? This what is being recommended https://www.softenerparts.com/9100_Softener_Twin_Tanks_64K_each_tank_p/95900064.htm
they also suggested that we could just get a larger tank and new resin to work with our current system or a 81K single tank as a middle option. They also told me that a separate iron filter "wouldn't help much"

 

[Reach4]

bannerman thank you it is now set at about 250 gal between regens

On that unit, if set to 250, when it counts to zero, it will schedule a regen for 2AM. So before 2am, you might use another 100 gallons.

If you think it is good for 25o gallons, you would say you use 180 gallons per day, and make that your reserve. Then set the white dot to (250-180)=70.
:-(
So unless you were away much of the day, you would regen every day.

 

[DIYMissus]

On that unit, if set to 250, when it counts to zero, it will schedule a regen for 2AM. So before 2am, you might use another 100 gallons.

If you think it is good for 25o gallons, you would say you use 180 gallons per day, and make that your reserve. Then set the white dot to (250-180)=70.
:-(
So unless you were away much of the day, you would regen every day.

Am I correct in that our water at 120 gpg has more calcium than milk?

 

[Reach4]

If milk has 125 mg/ 100 gm calcium, that would be about 1250 ppm calcium.

120 gpg would be 2052, so probably. Why probably? When they say calcium, they mean calcium equiv, which would include magnesium and maybe more. But since the majority would be calcium, it seems very probable.

Your water would probably taste good if you got the iron out. Maybe make a tap between the iron filter and the softener. You would want one for sampling, but you might like it for filling your water bottle too. Free mineral water.

Of course I may have messed up the calculations.

 

[Bannerman]

An Econominder controller does not utilize a separate reserve setting so any reserve allowance will need to be subtracted from the capacity that is regenerated. For instance, to incorporate a 100-gallon reserve (1-day usage) with 250 gallons regenerated capacity, the capacity setting would then need to be 150 gallons.

Because we do not know your softener's current salt setting, we don't actually know if 250 gallons worth of capacity is being regenerated.

A reserve allowance is necessary for a single tank softener since it cannot deliver soft water while it is regenerating. Although the programmed capacity may be depleted any time during the day such as 3 minutes into the 1st-morning shower, regeneration will be delayed until soft water is not normally required, typically 2 am. The reserve is intended to ensure adequate remaining capacity from when regeneration is triggered (when the programmed capacity is depleted), to when regeneration actually takes place. This way, more capacity should not be used than will be regenerated.

One issue with reserve is, not all of the reserve capacity will always be actually used depending on when through the day regeneration is triggered. When regeneration is triggered early in the day such as during the 1st-morning shower, then virtually all of the reserve will be consumed through the remainder of that day until regeneration occurs at 2-am the following morning. When regeneration is triggered later in the day such as while preparing for bed, then little reserve will be consumed which results in a significant quantity of unused reserve capacity being wasted when regeneration occurs at 2-am. Any wasted reserve capacity (an the salt used to regenerate it) will be minor when hardness is low, but when hardness is high such as in your situation, then any wasted reserve will represent a significant amount of softening capacity.

A twin tank softener will not require a reserve allowance since the alternate tank will immediately commence providing soft water when the 1st tank's capacity becomes depleted. Since all of each tank's regenerated capacity will be consistently available for use, then there is little wasted capacity which is why a twin tank will best suit your extreme hardness situation. A twin tank unit will, however, require a small allowance for regeneration of the depleted tank as that will be performed using soft water supplied by the online tank. The water utilized for regeneration will not be recorded by the softener's meter as water that has been softened.

 

[DIYMissus]

Because we do not know your softener's current salt setting, we don't actually know if 250 gallons worth of capacity is being regenerated.

Salt for regen is and has been set at 30