Water softener. Things to check before I call an expert?

[talmania]

I bought my current home about 18-20 months ago in an area with harder water. The home came with a Safeway water softener even though our specific area isn’t that bad but other areas of the city are apparently.

When I first bought the house I read up on water softeners and checked the salt reservoir and it was low with water above the existing pellets. I filled it up with the remaining 1/3 to 1/2 a bag that the previous homeowner left.

About 3 months later it was almost depleted again and I figured ok I’ll go through 3-4 bags a year so I went to the store and bought 4 bags. Put an entire bag in and fast forward over a year and there’s still quite a bit of salt left in the bottom (above water line). I checked to make sure it wasn’t a salt buildup/island or dam and it isn’t.

My concern is perhaps the softener isn’t doing anything. It cycles through the current time, capacity, capacity remaining, last regen time. It shows the last regen time over a year ago and the clock is currently set correctly.

I was able to get into the menu pages and they read as follows:

System Language: English
Valve Operation: Softner
Regen Mode: Meter Delayed
Regeneration Time: 2am
Capacity Calc: Automatic
Resin Volume: 1.00 FT3
Salt Setting: 7.0lbs/cf3
Refill Flowrate: .61GPM
Unit Capacity: 30,000 grains
Reserve Capacity: 75gal per person
Capacity: 2,427 gal

It’s a Safeway Model with dual black tanks but can’t find a model anywhere on the tank.

I’ve noticed the Current GPM shows zero even with water running in the house.

Are these units smart enough to sample the water and only add when necessary? What should/can I do to make sure it’s operating before calling in a professional?

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

Are these units smart enough to sample the water and only add when necessary? What should/can I do to make sure it’s operating before calling in a professional?

No, they are not. There is a good chance that you have a failure. This could be repairable, but usually a cabinet softener is just replaced. Post a photo of your unit with any easy-to-remove covers off.

You have a manual, but no model number mentioned?

If your usage meter is not working, you can push the right buttons to trigger a regeneration now or tonight.

I suggest you get a Hach 5-b kit to measure hardness of your water before and after the softener.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

Water softeners are typically assembled from components made by various companies. The company that assembles them will often install their own label afterwards (ie: Safeway), but they do not usually specify who produced components such as the control valve, resin tank, resin, and the brine tank components. While I did locate a video showing a Safeway softener with a Clack brand valve installed, suggest posting some photos showing each side of your control valve so we can verify yours is an actual Clack control.

We will need to know the specific hardness of the raw water at your location. Many municipalities will often indicate an average hardness quantity in the distribution system, but we will need to know the level at your home. We can most likely assist you to properly program the softener so it would be useful if you obtain a Hach 5B total hardness test kit so you can measure the water's hardness now as well as periodically going forward. The test kit can also be useful for testing the softened water to ensure the softener is operating properly.

The softener's current hardness setting was not specified so we will need to know that also.

One item that you did specify that was programmed incorrectly is using 7 lbs salt to regenerate 30K capacity. 30K in a 1 cuft softener would require a much higher salt setting, but we can guide you through the proper capacity and salt settings once the control valve has been identified and the hardness level is established.

 

[talmania]

No, they are not. There is a good chance that you have a failure. This could be repairable, but usually a cabinet softener is just replaced. Post a photo of your unit with any easy-to-remove covers off.

You have a manual, but no model number mentioned?

If your usage meter is not working, you can push the right buttons to trigger a regeneration now or tonight.

I suggest you get a Hach 5-b kit to measure hardness of your water before and after the softener.

Thank you very much! The kit has been ordered—thank you! I’ve gone to Safeway’s website and found what appears to be “my model” from looking at their limited support catalog and looking through the manual it led to some trial and I found the menu by a little trial and error. I was looking for the force regeneration now the process the manual stated did nothing but bring up a response to hold the menu button for 3 seconds to access the menu which gave the numbers I included.

I’ve attached some photos.

 

[talmania]

Water softeners are typically assembled from components made by various companies. The company that assembles them will often install their own label afterwards (ie: Safeway), but they do not usually specify who produced components such as the control valve, resin tank, resin, and the brine tank components. While I did locate a video showing a Safeway softener with a Clack brand valve installed, suggest posting some photos showing each side of your control valve so we can verify yours is an actual Clack control.

We will need to know the specific hardness of the raw water at your location. Many municipalities will often indicate an average hardness quantity in the distribution system, but we will need to know the level at your home. We can most likely assist you to properly program the softener so it would be useful if you obtain a Hach 5B total hardness test kit so you can measure the water's hardness now as well as periodically going forward. The test kit can also be useful for testing the softened water to ensure the softener is operating properly.

The softener's current hardness setting was not specified so we will need to know that also.

One item that you did specify that was programmed incorrectly is using 7 lbs salt to regenerate 30K capacity. 30K in a 1 cuft softener would require a much higher salt setting, but we can guide you through the proper capacity and salt settings once the control valve has been identified and the hardness level is established.

Thank you very much for this info. I’ve ordered a kit. Appreciate the help!

 

[Old]

That unit is made by a Chinese company called Canature. That is probably their "hto" system. One tank (probably)
contains carbon and the other tank softening resin. This is not a twin alternating system. It looks like the model "785" valve. It could be upflow or downflow, they can be had both ways.

Can you post a link to the manual you found? The menu options you listed earlier are not typical of the 785 upflow. I'm thinking yours is the downflow version, the refill flow rate is high for the upflow (typically .2gpm) along with the different menu options leads me to believe that yours is downflow. I have only worked with Canature branded 785 upflow so I can't say for sure.

The reason it is not using salt is because the meter is not counting (as you found by running water with no flow being registered). This unit does not have a hardness sensor. There is a turbine wheel inside the bypass housing (thing with two red knobs where pipes connect). The turbine wheel spins as water flows through. There are magnets on the wheel, as it spins there is a sensor that counts the magnetic pulses to determine how much water is being used. Your turbine wheel is probably jammed and not spinning. There is probably some debris stuck in the wheel. Canature had a time where they were not coating the magnets properly. The magnets would rust and the rust would jam the wheel, that could be your problem. Per Canature if your magnets are rusted you should replace the whole bypass assembly. They do not sell the turbine wheel by itself. This part should be covered under warranty if your unit is less than 7yrs old.

You can remove the turbine wheel but it is difficult to reinstall it. It is held in the bypass with a pressed in plastic retainer. It is pretty difficult properly reinstall the plastic retainer. I suspect they were not designed to be serviced but it is possible.

To manually start a Regen cycle press and hold the far left menu button for 3 seconds until it beeps. Then press the and hold the second from the left square button for 3 seconds. Now with the up and down buttons highlight "immediate", press the square button to select, then press the far left menu button. Depending on software version these steps may not be exact but hopefully you can figure it out. The whole process is needlessly complicated and can change depending on software version. One of the many many reasons I do not like Canature equipment.

I will post a few pics of the bypass and how to access the turbine wheel tomorrow.

 

[talmania]

That unit is made by a Chinese company called Canature. That is probably their "hto" system. One tank (probably)
contains carbon and the other tank softening resin. This is not a twin alternating system. It looks like the model "785" valve. It could be upflow or downflow, they can be had both ways.

Can you post a link to the manual you found? The menu options you listed earlier are not typical of the 785 upflow. I'm thinking yours is the downflow version, the refill flow rate is high for the upflow (typically .2gpm) along with the different menu options leads me to believe that yours is downflow. I have only worked with Canature branded 785 upflow so I can't say for sure.

The reason it is not using salt is because the meter is not counting (as you found by running water with no flow being registered). This unit does not have a hardness sensor. There is a turbine wheel inside the bypass housing (thing with two red knobs where pipes connect). The turbine wheel spins as water flows through. There are magnets on the wheel, as it spins there is a sensor that counts the magnetic pulses to determine how much water is being used. Your turbine wheel is probably jammed and not spinning. There is probably some debris stuck in the wheel. Canature had a time where they were not coating the magnets properly. The magnets would rust and the rust would jam the wheel, that could be your problem. Per Canature if your magnets are rusted you should replace the whole bypass assembly. They do not sell the turbine wheel by itself. This part should be covered under warranty if your unit is less than 7yrs old.

You can remove the turbine wheel but it is difficult to reinstall it. It is held in the bypass with a pressed in plastic retainer. It is pretty difficult properly reinstall the plastic retainer. I suspect they were not designed to be serviced but it is possible.

To manually start a Regen cycle press and hold the far left menu button for 3 seconds until it beeps. Then press the and hold the second from the left square button for 3 seconds. Now with the up and down buttons highlight "immediate", press the square button to select, then press the far left menu button. Depending on software version these steps may not be exact but hopefully you can figure it out. The whole process is needlessly complicated and can change depending on software version. One of the many many reasons I do not like Canature equipment.

I will post a few pics of the bypass and how to access the turbine wheel tomorrow.

Woah...thank you so much! I must apologize that I wasn’t very clear. I never found the manual—I simply went to Safeway waters website and found a limited number of models and one that looks like mine. Here’s where I went.

https://safewaywater.com/manuals/

And this one looks like my unit.

https://safewaywater.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/SIGNATURE-SERIES-FILTER-MANUAL-9-5-18.pdf


The controls didn’t act like the manual here said so it’s not my model but by trying to simultaneously push the up and down button I got the notice on the screen that to access the menu push the menu button for 3 seconds. I ended up pushing the button on the far left for three seconds and that’s what brought up the menu options that I listed previously.

 

[talmania]

Ok I followed the above instructions and it worked. It reported backwash and 6 minutes and I can definitely hear water flowing and see it coming out of my drain in the floor of my equipment area. Timer and progress bar counted down from 6 min and then said advancing to brine and then brine/rinse with a 59 minute countdown. I’ll post an update when that completes.

The house is only 4-5 years old so I’d imagine it’s under warranty.

Thanks again!!

 

[talmania]

To update—the process went through steps of refill, service etc then completed without any indication of problems. I noticed the water level in the salt reservoir decreased. The regeneration time posted on the menu now shows last nights date.
GPM flow indicator still shows 0.0 when water is running in the house. So it sounds like your turbine wheel theory is right. Everything else seems to work.

I’m guessing any water softener repair shop would be able to assist with a warranty replacement?

 

[Bannerman]

I’m guessing any water softener repair shop would be able to assist with a warranty replacement?

If there is any warranty remaining, you may need to deal with Safeway directly or a dealer they authorize.

 

[Reach4]

If there is any warranty remaining, you may need to deal with Safeway directly or a dealer they authorize.

And they are likely to say the failure is due to maintenance items that are not under warranty.

 

[talmania]

And they are likely to say the failure is due to maintenance items that are not under warranty.

Ouch. That sucks. What good is a 10-year on parts and 7-year on electronics warranty then? I figured I’ll get hit with the it’s not a transferable warranty issue.

 

[Bannerman]

Ouch. That sucks

Speculation only.

You have nothing to loose in contacting Safeway to discuss your issue. Even if it turns-out the defective component will not be replaced under warranty, Safeway may allow you to purchase the applicable part directly from their parts department, or they may advise you on an appropriate source in which to obtain exact replacement parts for your specific control valve model.

 

[talmania]

Speculation only.

You have nothing to loose in contacting Safeway to discuss your issue. Even if it turns-out the defective component will not be replaced under warranty, Safeway may allow you to purchase the applicable part directly from their parts department, or they may advise you on an appropriate source in which to obtain exact replacement parts for your specific control valve model.

I did just this today and they stated it was a design defect and not necessarily a manufacturing defect. Said the iron had most likely built up on the wheel and that they no longer work with the manufacturer that supplied that part and had no way to replace it. It would need to be cleaned but would do the same thing again. My understanding is based on the conversation it’s a monitoring issue and not a functionality issue as they stated the softner would work it just wouldn’t be able to regenerate based on flow monitoring. They had me set it to a manual regenerate cycle based on a 7-day schedule.

Not sure I’m entirely pleased but if it’s working then I guess I’m ok.

 

[Old]

I'm sorry, I forgot about this post!

It is a manufacturing issue, the magnets are not coated and the magnets themselves rust. This does not happen on the updated version of the part. I'm sorry they won't help you get a new bypass. It should be covered under warranty.

I have attached pics of the bypass and turbine wheel. You can see the rusted magnets. You can see how to remove the wheel. You can clean the rust but it will happen again. It's also pretty difficult to properly reinstall the wheel once it has been removed.

It would be best to replace the bypass with new. As I said before the turbine itself is not available individually. You need Canature part #60010002. You may be able to find it online somewhere. If not PM me and we can sell you one, retail is ~$50 plus shipping.

Now yours may not even be rusted. Other debris can get stuck in there and jam the wheel. It would be worth taking it apart to see what is going on. It could be sand, solder, plastic shaving, etc that could be jammed in the wheel.

 

[talmania]

Thanks for that! I’m no maintenance expert—the extent of my handiness is painting and twice replacing a toilet. Is this something that can be done by an average person such as myself? I’m comfortable learning but don’t want to screw anything up.

Thanks again!

 

[Reach4]

Thanks for that! I’m no maintenance expert—the extent of my handiness is painting and twice replacing a toilet. Is this something that can be done by an average person such as myself? I’m comfortable learning but don’t want to screw anything up.

I don't know if it would work if you tried this, but it doesn't work now.

Whenever you pull a rubber seal, it is best to very-lightly coat that with silicone grease as you reassemble. I like Molykote 111. A 5.3 ounce tube is probably a lifetime supply. https://www.danco.com/product/0-5-oz-silicone-faucet-grease/ is probably available locally.

A thinner version called silicon release compound. Dow MOLYKOTE 7 Release Compound may be preferred by pros. The thick slow stuff works for me. I use nitrile gloves to apply so I don't have to clean it off my hands. It is not harmful.

 

[ditttohead]

A thin coat of clear nail polish over the magnets should not be considered since it is not food grade listed...

 

[Old]

Thanks for that! I’m no maintenance expert—the extent of my handiness is painting and twice replacing a toilet. Is this something that can be done by an average person such as myself? I’m comfortable learning but don’t want to screw anything up.

Thanks again!

Yes it is very simple. I will try to upload pics or a video of how to remove the bypass. You will just need a phillips screwdriver and a pair of pliers.

 

[Old]

A thin coat of clear nail polish over the magnets should not be considered since it is not food grade listed...

Correct