Water sensor switch. There are times in late summer drought where my well can't always deliver the 350 gallons from 'switch on' to 'switch off' ...

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Shawn Parker

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in the holding tank all in one time. So I manually turn off the well pump and after a little recovery time, it can finish the fill. I need a sensor switch at the well pump that will turn it off (without losing prime), wait a prescribed time, then turn on again.... NOT a combo sensor/pressure switch at the booster pump, which is all that I seem to find. It is the well pump that keeps running, a sensor at the booster pump does nothing to fix that.
Couldn't I just raise the lowest pair of tethered float switches in the holding tank from a 350g deficit to a 250g deficit? Yeah I know it'll cycle more... once every other day instead of once every third day... I don't care.
I'd rather go for the sensor switch solution

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Reach4

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There are devices that can shut off the well pump when the well is running dry. It stays off for a programmable amount of time. Cycle Sensor is one such device. The Cycle Sensor tells if the pump is running out of water by the current draw, which will decrease when running out of water at the intake of the pump.

Your photo shows float switch and weight combinations. It may be that only the upper float switch controls the well pump.

If you shorten the distance between the weight and the float, you could cause the pump to cycle a little more. They already look to be fairly close together.

The lower float switch may kill power to the pressure pump when the tank is out of water. If the bottom weight is sitting on the bottom, the bottom float switch may not be able to drop enough to inhibit the pressure pump.
 

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Like was said, the Cycle Sensor would protect your pump from running dry, and has a timer that can be set as long as needed to let the well recover. But you can also raise the float switch if you like, as an extra cycle or two a day is not going to hurt the pump, but running dry will. You could also use a ball valve to restrict the flow into the storage tank. Filling the tank will take longer, but you can restrict enough to keep the pump from pumping the well dry.
 

Shawn Parker

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There are devices that can shut off the well pump when the well is running dry. It stays off for a programmable amount of time. Cycle Sensor is one such device. The Cycle Sensor tells if the pump is running out of water by the current draw, which will decrease when running out of water at the intake of the pump.

Your photo shows float switch and weight combinations. It may be that only the upper float switch controls the well pump.

If you shorten the distance between the weight and the float, you could cause the pump to cycle a little more. They already look to be fairly close together.

The lower float switch may kill power to the pressure pump when the tank is out of water. If the bottom weight is sitting on the bottom, the bottom float switch may not be able to drop enough to inhibit the pressure pump.
the booster pump isn't the problem and I think it's controlled by the pressure switch and the 2 bladder tanks and will turn on when a sufficient volume of water is being used.... enough for the pressure to drop til the cut in pressure kicks the booster on.
The bottom float switch /weight doesn't bottom out and turns on 2 line well pump with foot valve. The top float switch turns off the well pump when the holding tank is 'full'... the difference is about 350 gallons. Well is 25' from holding tank.
The problem is when the well can't supply the 350g tofill tank, lift float and turn off pump, and it keeps running, until I turn it off, wait x minutes prime pump and turn on to fill the rest of 350g and turns off itself.
I need a sensor switch at the well pump that will turn it off, hold prime and turn on after so many minutes to finish the fill. Ideally the best solution.
Or to just raise the whole lower float by putting a loop in the drop wires, making the pump turn on at a lower deficit than 350g. that the well can supply consistently.
There is a window of time during drought where this is a possible scenario. Last summer for 3 weeks it was.
A sensor switch my best solution for this problem, right?

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Reach4

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Pressure switch controls the pressure pump if there is water in the tank, but I expect the bottom float also can cut power to the pump.

If your concept of the two float switches were correct, I would expect the pump to not start until the bottom float falls. I expect your pump will start once the top float switch falls. With the two models in mind, I suspect you can come up with an experiment that will confirm one or the other.

How far does a float have to fall? It depends on the float switch. I think many need to fall about 45 degrees below horizontal.

Your other new stuff I think was reiterating what you are dealing with -- well runs dry before pump shuts off, and that you expect to get a Cycle Saver https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/cycle-sensor-pump-monitors See the bottom of https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/products for wiring diagram and other info.

You could also look at Pump Saver or similar.

Your well pump I presume is a submersible pump. You want it to not be sucking air. Losing prime is not a term used with submersible pumps.
 
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Shawn Parker

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Pressure switch controls the pressure pump if there is water in the tank, but I expect the bottom float also can cut power to the pump.

If your concept of the two float switches were correct, I would expect the pump to not start until the bottom float falls. I expect your pump will start once the top float switch falls. With the two models in mind, I suspect you can come up with an experiment that will confirm one or the other.

How far does a float have to fall? It depends on the float switch. I think many need to fall about 45 degrees below horizontal.

Your other new stuff I think was reiterating what you are dealing with -- well runs dry before pump shuts off, and that you expect to get a Cycle Saver https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/cycle-sensor-pump-monitors See the bottom of https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/products for wiring diagram and other info.

You could also look at Pump Saver or similar.

Your well pump I presume is a submersible pump. You want it to not be sucking air. Losing prime is not a term used with submersible pumps.
i don't have a submersible pump, it is the 2 line pump pictured. The well company's water analysis of the water says it has no smell or taste but it WILL EAT FIXTURES. Replacing a submersible pump every few years didn't seem a good choice when the well was put in back in 1964, or now either. It is a 56 ft well with foot valve at 52 ft and water table at 22ft.
Losing prime is a term used and an issue to deal with an above ground 2 line pump.
Are those mentioned sensors still applicable as a solution with this system?
My upper float does NOT turn on the well pump, it turns it off when raised. It dangles in the air until water drops the lower float which turns on the well pump, it does NOT turn it off as well.
When the well can't fill the tank enough to raise the top float the pump WILL keep running and prime IS lost. The bottom float's position has nothing to do with turning off the pump.
 

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The Cycle Sensor will work with jet pumps. But it will not detect a low water level with a jet pump like it will with a submersible. the Cycle Sensor will only shut the pump off after it loses prime. You will just need to tighten the float switch adjustment to put less water in the cistern with each cycle.
 

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My upper float does NOT turn on the well pump, it turns it off when raised. It dangles in the air until water drops the lower float which turns on the well pump, it does NOT turn it off as well.
When the well can't fill the tank enough to raise the top float the pump WILL keep running and prime IS lost. The bottom float's position has nothing to do with turning off the pump.
In that case, you have some logic box that makes that work, and to tighten the span between on and off, you would raise the bottom float.

If you have the well diameter space, I would try a submersible. Maybe try a cheapie.
 

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In that case, you have some logic box that makes that work, and to tighten the span between on and off, you would raise the bottom float.

If you have the well diameter space, I would try a submersible. Maybe try a cheapie.
logic box? When the lower float drops it turns on the well pump filling the holding tank until the upper float raises and turns off the pump. In this picture the pump is running and the top float is rising, but the water is only an inch up on the upper weight (blue lines), when full the water level is about 6 inches above the weight (red line)
 

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Shawn Parker

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The Cycle Sensor will work with jet pumps. But it will not detect a low water level with a jet pump like it will with a submersible. the Cycle Sensor will only shut the pump off after it loses prime. You will just need to tighten the float switch adjustment to put less water in the cistern with each cycle.
well even if it at least shuts off I'm in better shape, even if I have to prime the line before turning it back on right? There is only a short period of time when the well might not be able to fill the 350 gallons needed to raise the upper float. Last summer was the first time in many years that this was an issue for about 3 weeks, due to the severe drought in northern Calif. with rainfall way below average. It takes longer for the water table in my well casing to recover, when it usually is not a problem.
 

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I understand what you are saying. An implication of that that would be that with water in the tank, pushing the upper float down would not turn the pump on.
 

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Yes the Cycle Sensor is still good to protect a jet pump as it will shut the pump off 10 seconds after it runs dry. The restart delay needs to be set to 000 so it is manual reset only. That way it won't come back on by itself as you will need to re-prime the pump before resetting the Cycle Sensor.
 

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Yes the Cycle Sensor is still good to protect a jet pump as it will shut the pump off 10 seconds after it runs dry. The restart delay needs to be set to 000 so it is manual reset only. That way it won't come back on by itself as you will need to re-prime the pump before resetting the Cycle Sensor.
right on.... thank you. For as little that this happens I don't mind that I have to re-prime the well pump
 

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I'm confused about the wiring of the CSV to the 'pressure switch' and the setting instructions which seem to be reliant on the numbers observed from filling the pressure tank and its pressure switch turning the pump on or off. The pressure switch related to the pressure tanks is on my booster pump.... NOT my well pump, which is the one that I am trying to keep from dry running. The well pump IS NOT controlled by the pressure switch on my booster pump... it IS controlled by the float switches in the holding tank... which are NOT reliant on the pressure tanks or the booster pump. There is a 'pressure switch' on my well pump (see picture), but it DOES NOT turn it on or off.
I do not understand how setting the CSV according to what the pressure tanks and the booster pump pressure switch does can do ANYTHING to tell that my well pump is dry running.
If the CSV is supposed to be wired to the 'pressure switch' on the well pump how can it tell what the pressure tanks are doing? They are 20 feet apart and the pressure tanks are kept pressurized by the booster pump through its pressure switch.
If the CSV reads variations in amps from the well pump working or dry running, I would think it would need to be wired to the 'pressure switch' on the well pump. As there can be water in the holding tank and the booster pump will still keep the pressure tanks full, but the well pump could run dry and keep running, not turning off until the holding tank is full enough to raise the float switch.
There seems to be a major problem between the CSV wiring to a 'pressure switch' (which one?) and adjustment readings dependent on pressure tanks filling and shutting off the well pump... which doesn't seem to be how my system operates.
If the major disconnect is in my itty bitty brain I need an explanation on how the CSV would be connected to my system and adjusted according to its instructions, and how that will actually turn off my well pump when it runs dry and keeps running, even though my holding tank has water and the booster pump is keeping pressure tanks full.

Isn't there something easier that can tell when my well pump isn't pumping water and will simply shut it off? Not needing to know anything more than that?
I can't see where spending the money for a CSV is necessary if all I need is something to turn off my well pump. I can't make use of all the cool bells and whistles that a CSV has to offer anyway, like auto restart and adjustable timers and whatever. My pump runs dry... I lose prime... period. No amount of nifty extras on a CSV are ever going to work for me. So why would I want to pay for them?
And for the few possible times that my pump actually might need to be shut off, there has to be something easier that doesn't cost 300 dollars.... or 200.... or 100.
Right?
 

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Valveman

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I'm confused about the wiring of the CSV to the 'pressure switch' and the setting instructions which seem to be reliant on the numbers observed from filling the pressure tank and its pressure switch turning the pump on or off. The pressure switch related to the pressure tanks is on my booster pump.... NOT my well pump, which is the one that I am trying to keep from dry running. The well pump IS NOT controlled by the pressure switch on my booster pump... it IS controlled by the float switches in the holding tank... which are NOT reliant on the pressure tanks or the booster pump. There is a 'pressure switch' on my well pump (see picture), but it DOES NOT turn it on or off.
I do not understand how setting the CSV according to what the pressure tanks and the booster pump pressure switch does can do ANYTHING to tell that my well pump is dry running.
If the CSV is supposed to be wired to the 'pressure switch' on the well pump how can it tell what the pressure tanks are doing? They are 20 feet apart and the pressure tanks are kept pressurized by the booster pump through its pressure switch.
If the CSV reads variations in amps from the well pump working or dry running, I would think it would need to be wired to the 'pressure switch' on the well pump. As there can be water in the holding tank and the booster pump will still keep the pressure tanks full, but the well pump could run dry and keep running, not turning off until the holding tank is full enough to raise the float switch.
There seems to be a major problem between the CSV wiring to a 'pressure switch' (which one?) and adjustment readings dependent on pressure tanks filling and shutting off the well pump... which doesn't seem to be how my system operates.
If the major disconnect is in my itty bitty brain I need an explanation on how the CSV would be connected to my system and adjusted according to its instructions, and how that will actually turn off my well pump when it runs dry and keeps running, even though my holding tank has water and the booster pump is keeping pressure tanks full.

Isn't there something easier that can tell when my well pump isn't pumping water and will simply shut it off? Not needing to know anything more than that?
I can't see where spending the money for a CSV is necessary if all I need is something to turn off my well pump. I can't make use of all the cool bells and whistles that a CSV has to offer anyway, like auto restart and adjustable timers and whatever. My pump runs dry... I lose prime... period. No amount of nifty extras on a CSV are ever going to work for me. So why would I want to pay for them?
And for the few possible times that my pump actually might need to be shut off, there has to be something easier that doesn't cost 300 dollars.... or 200.... or 100.
Right?

First a CSV is a Cycle Stop Valve and you have it confused with a Cycle Sensor. The CSV is a simple valve, no electric to it, that delivers constant 50 PS pressure from your booster pump instead of it cycling on and off at 60 and 40 over and over. But you can let the pump cycle itself to death and still have water as a CSV is not required.

The Cycle Sensor is just an electronic sensor that looks for a dry well or a rapid cycle and shuts the pump off if that happens. You really can't get much simpler than that at any price. There are other devices that do that like the Pumptec and the Symcom, but they do have other bells and whistles and I don't know how much they cost.

The Cycle Sensor would be wired to the float switch on the well pump and the pressure switch on the booster pump. I don't know of any other way to do the well pump. But you can use a pump down float switch instead of a Cycle Sensor to protect the booster pump from running dry.
 

Reach4

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Review post #3. The ball valve to throttle the flow from the well pump was an alternative to the Cycle Sensor.
 

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Review post #3. The ball valve to throttle the flow from the well pump was an alternative to the Cycle Sensor.
Not really an alternative to the protection of a Cycle Sensor. Throttling the pump so that it doesn't pump the well dry is a good idea. But if something changes or you don't get it right the pump can still melt down from running dry.
 

Reach4

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Some alternatives are better than others. Some are cheaper than others.

But yes, keeping sufficient flow would be important.
 
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