Water out when Brine Drawing

[jjamison]

I have a Fleck 5810 that has recently stopped drawing “brine” (it’s actually a katalox light tank with pot perm being drawn).
I cleaned the injector (yellow and white) and screen and replaced the piston seal assembly with this part:
61956-01 (https://www.softenerparts.com/Piston_and_Seals_KIT_FLECK_5810_PN_61956_01_p/3461956-01.htm)

Brine still not drawing.
When I disconnected the tube from the “brine tank” during the brine draw step (BD) there was pressurized water exiting the “brine” tube (strong enough to squirt around my finger).
I wonder if the valve is out of step, or I purchased the wrong piston, or the injector is still fouled, or something else is wrong.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

[ditttohead]

Does the piston have a white dot on the piston rod?

Remove the drain clip and drain 90 from the valve when it is in the brine draw cycle. let us know what you find.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[jjamison]

Hi dittohead!
I did not notice a white dot on either the original or replacement piston.
I'm not sure what you mean by drain 90.
I did remove the drain flow restriction button and adjusted the drain line and gap for maximum flow with no change.
Perhaps as interesting is the fact the next tank in line is also a katalox light tank than I just discovered also has water exiting the brine line... see below.
Update: I recleaned the 5810 injector and screen and checked the brine line and drain line for obstructions. Water still coming from “brine” line during BD. (Note this is after replacing the piston/seals assembly on the 5810.)
After this failure I figured I would remind myself what a working valve looks like and manually cycled my Fleck 7000 Katalox Light tank with PotPerm regeneration (I have two of them). I found my 7000 was also not drawing with water coming out of the line during BD as well! So I replaced the seals and spacers on the 7000 and cleaned the injector and screen. No luck, water still coming out of brine line during BD for this valve also.
I have a standard softener resin tank with a 7000 valve that I know is working due to salt consumption.
At this point I’m assuming there is some accumulated fouling that I’ve failed to address on both the 5810 and 7000.
Note that both of these valves have worked fine for months such that with the 7000 softener working I don’t consider it a setup issue, the drain lines are not going uphill anyway and have a gap to drain after only a few feet.
Summary: two valves both not drawing (5810 and 7000). Replaced piston and spacers on 5810 and seals/spacers on 7000. Cleaned both injectors and screens with citric acid and tooth brush.
Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Bannerman]

I'm not sure what you mean by drain 90.

That will be the 90-degree fitting that the drain line is connected to.

 

[Reach4]

I did not notice a white dot on either the original or replacement piston.

You no longer have the original piston?

 

[jjamison]

Well that was fun. I have no idea what I did with the original piston. It seems unlikely I threw it away, and I looked in the garbage cans, so it must be tucked under a fold a pvc somewhere in the crawlspce. I looked there but didn't see it. I'll try again tomorrow.
From this post about a similar issue with a 5600
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-technician-is-scratching-is-head-help.73584/
Bannerman wrote:
There is a screen within the brine circuit that should be checked as the screen wasn't initially mentioned. BD utilizes a substantially lower flow rate. Slow rinse flow through the injector, creates suction on the brine line to draw brine from the brine tank.
The BLFC button is directional and needs to be installed in the correct orientation.
Since it seems you already inspected the piston, seals and spacers, was silicone grease lubricant utilized when re-installing the parts? Unless sufficiently lubricated, the piston may have difficulties sliding within the seals or may damage the seals.
Although only 3 years old, if the water contains a significant amount of chlorine, that may cause the seals to degrade prematurely. You might wish to replace the seals, spacers and piston.
And you, Reach4, wrote:
I have never done this, but I would see if I could run a pipe cleaner through the passages. If you do that successfully, post a photo of the pipe cleaner passing through the passage.
Maybe a water pick could blow debris out.
When you got into the softener, what kind of crud did you find? Orange rust stuff?
And the original poster:
You're a genious! The problem was not the screen or the injector but the cavity where they sit. I removed them and flush water through the housing and surprise... BD draw seems to be back! What a good feeling! Thanks a million for your help! John
I'm assuming Ditto is wanting to make sure there is no flow restriction on the drain line. I'd not wanted to try this, removing the drain elbow, as it's not easy to vacuum up loose water in my crawlspace, but I'll give it a go.
With two valves both failing to draw and having cleaned and adjusted the drain line I'm assuming it's more likely fouling the in the valve somewhere.
I'll look again for the piston so I can answer the white dot question, but with the valve failing to draw before piston replacement and now having two valves failing to draw I'm assuming fouling in the valves somewhere?
I ordered two replacement injectors. Seems these might be the most likely to fail?
From the previous discussion it seems brine draw is really susceptible to fouling issues. There was a bunch of "orange rust stuff" in both valves. So I'm going to try cleaning the valves. Maybe using your water pick idea and/or flexible brushes if I can find some.

 

[Reach4]

I'm assuming Ditto is wanting to make sure there is no flow restriction on the drain line. I'd not wanted to try this, removing the drain elbow, as it's not easy to vacuum up loose water in my crawlspace, but I'll give it a go.

Regarding testing for a blocked drain line, I would think that measuring the flow during backwash would be good. For example, if the backwash on the KL was supposed to be 8 gpm, you would expect to fill a 5 gallon bucket in about 38 seconds.

I ordered two replacement injectors.

When you inspect the injector, do you see gunk? Just be sure you have removed the pressure before checking. Removing pressure can be done by turning off the incoming water and opening a downstream low faucet, or putting the valve in bypass, and starting a backwash. Putting the device into backwash would make the control think that you had just regenerated, so would mess up timing.

 

[jjamison]

Problem solved.
I cleaned the injector/screen channels with a Water Pik and citric acid and replaced the injectors with new ones I didn't realize I already had.
Both valves are now drawing.
Not sure if it was cleaning or replacing injectors or both or maybe one on one valve and one on the other.
Lesson learned is probably that heavily fouled valves may not be corrected without extra cleaning effort or maybe just replacing the injectors.
Thanks for your help.

 

[jjamison]

You no longer have the original piston?

Was rooting through my study today and found the original piston in question. Sigh.
You know how you loose things mainly in two ways? Either you put it somewhere "special" where you know you'll never lose it and therefore it's lost. Or you tuck it in a place that's out of the way for safety until a little later because if you leave it there for too long you'll forget and it's lost.
This was a case of number two. I was likely watching a repair video in the study after having removed the piston and placed it aside for safety.
I'm hoping that in the next ten years or so AI (Alexa or Siri) will be able to keep up with stuff. Alexa, where is the 5810 piston I removed a few days ago? "You placed it in the cubicle at the foot of the study bed."
Oh, and it's white, so that should be correct and it's a match for the replacement piston. And as stated above, lesson learned was that scrubbing injectors with a toothbrush and citric acid followed by placing injectors in a mason jar with water and citric acid and shaking thoroughly surprisingly may not clear the small passage sufficiently.

 

[Reach4]

This was a case of number two. I was likely watching a repair video in the study after having removed the piston and placed it aside for safety.
I'm hoping that in the next ten years or so AI (Alexa or Siri) will be able to keep up with stuff. Alexa, where is the 5810 piston I removed a few days ago?

While we are dreaming, let's have the robot place it, catalog it, and retrieve it.

Maybe have a system where you can be notified of somebody locally looking for such an item, and comparing the bid price to what you might consider.

But with your system, I guess it could use its cameras to compile a list of everything you set down or place over time.

 

[jjamison]

Sounds like Amazon!
I suppose a reasonable expectation in the near future might be just to be able to say something like "Alexa, remember where I put something... I just put this old piston in the study cubbyhole."

 

[Bannerman]

Such reminders can already be done using Google Assistant on Google Home.