*** Solved*** Troubleshooting my new 5810SXT softener. Running out of soft water too quickly?

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WaterBoyA2

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The Brine Fill flow limiting device should rightly be the BLFC button, NOT the injector.

To prevent resin fluidization during the combined Brine Draw/Slow Rinse stage of regeneration, an Upflow system will usually utilize a lower flowing injector compared to an equally sized downflow system.

To ensure the consistant and predictable flow rate needed for Brine Fill, the BLFC button utilized must be a lower flow rate than the injector. If you view the injector chart, you will see the 00 injector flow rate will depend greatly on water pressure and does not exceed 0.25 when water pressure is at the low end of the chart. To prevent the injector from limiting the BF rate, a 0.125 GPM BLFC will be most appropriate for each of the systems discussed above.

The BLFC button is directional as it is designed to compensate for a wide incoming pressure variance so as to provide a consistant Brine Fill flow rate. To function correctly, the BLFC button must be installed with the numbers facing toward the control valve.

During Brine Draw, the brine will flow around the sides of the BLFC button in addition to through the center hole. The BD flow rate is therefore governed by the injector's Draw rate which is to be greater than the BF rate.

Due to the the extra considerations and details needed to correctly configure an upflow system to acheive only minimal benefit for a residential sized system, the usual advice offered on this forum to those that ask in advance of purchase, is to obtain a downflow system.

The Hach 5B will provide essentually the same result whether the sample is diluted or not. The recommendation to dilute when hardness exceeds 30 gpg, is intended to reduce the quantity of indicator solution needed when hardness is excessive, which will therefore save you money.


Fleck 5800 injector flow charts. (Same as 5810)
Thank you for pointing out the injector flow chart. That is for the draw cycle. It shows the venturi action. I'd like to understand what the injector does during the brine fill cycle, which is not shown in that chart.

Does anyone know what the ball inside the injector does? I guessed check ball, but maybe it has to do with stabilizing the venturi action.

Thank you for explaining two-way action on the BLFC assembly. I can see how the orifice (button) slides in the plastic cage to give asymmetric flow restriction.

I should have mentioned I have a down flow setup.

I'm curious what will happen if I remove the injector and go to the fill cycle. If flow increases, then the injector is the restriction. If not, I have a hidden obstruction.
 

Bannerman

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Back flow is limited by the separate BLFC,
The Backwash flow rate is governed by the Drain Line Flow Controller (DLFC) button. For a 10" diameter softener tank, the drain flow rate will typically be 2.4 -2.5 GPM, and 3.5 - 3.9 GPM for a 12" diameter tank.

The flow diagrams provided, are those made available by Fleck.
 

WaterBoyA2

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The Backwash flow rate is governed by the Drain Line Flow Controller (DLFC) button. For a 10" diameter softener tank, the drain flow rate will typically be 2.4 -2.5 GPM, and 3.5 - 3.9 GPM for a 12" diameter tank.

The flow diagrams provided, are those made available by Fleck.
Sorry, I meant DLFC. Understand. But unrelated to the brine fill.
 

Bannerman

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I'm curious what will happen if I remove the injector and go to the fill cycle. If flow increases, then the injector is the restriction.
As previously stated, your BLFC button needs to allow less flow to pass than the injector, otherwise, the injector will be the Brine Fill flow restrictor, which is improper.
 

Reach4

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I recommended checking the drain line during backwash. That flow is regulated by the DLFC (drain line flow control) button.

I was wondering if there was something would cause the flow during brine fill to be reduced and also reduce the backwash rate. Unlikely now that I think about it some more.
 

WaterBoyA2

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As previously stated, your BLFC button needs to allow less flow to pass than the injector, otherwise, the injector will be the Brine Fill flow restrictor, which is improper.
So if you have violet #00 injector, why isn't your brine fill also limited by the injector? That was the root of my first post. Maybe I misunderstood your injector.
 

Bannerman

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why isn't your brine fill also limited by the injector?
Looking at the flow graphs for the injectors, you will see the injector flow rate will vary greatly depending on water pressure.

Because the quantity of water entering the brine tank dictates the amount of salt that will be dissolved, which will determine the softening capacity to be regenerated, the Brine Fill flow rate needs to be always consistant and predictable, regardless of incoming water pressure variance As already stated, the BLFC button was designed to compensate for water pressure variance, so as to deliver a consistant and predictable rate of flow entering the brine tank.

The injector is designed to pass the specific flow rate through the resin to 1) create sufficient suction to draw the brine from the brine tank, 2) to dilute the brine as it is being transferred from the brine tank into the resin bed, 3) to restrict flow through the resin to prevent the resin bed from becoming compacted (downflow brining) , or to prevent the resin from becoming fluidized (upflow brining) while brine is flowing through the resin bed and during the subsequent Slow Rinse cycle.

Recompaction of the resin bed is to occur during the later Rapid Rinse stage of regeneration.

Since your system is configured for Downflow Brining, you may choose to utilize your current 0.25 GPM BLFC if you first replace your 00 Violet Injector with a suitable higher flowing injector.
 

Reach4

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I have a copy of Fleck Bulletin No. 599, which is specific to the 7000. But I wonder if a similar thing applies to the 5800.

"One of the benefits of the 7000 is the treated water brine refi ll. The raw water runs down
through the media (or resin bed), up through the injector assembly, and then through the
BLFC. The treated water runs through the injector before the BLFC, therefore the BLFC must
be sized smaller than the injector flow rates to be accurate in determining how much treated
water is being placed in the brine tank. Please refer to the sizing chart on the previous page
for additional information."

In that previous page is a table that says that if you have a #00 injector with a 10 inch tank, you could use a 0.125 or a 0.25 BLFC. I think, especially because what you have observed, you, I would try to get a 0.125 BLFC button.

It looks as if that Fleck Bulletin No. 599 PDF is available as an attachment on https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-softener-identification-other-s.67217/page-2 #24. See what you think.
 

WaterBoyA2

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This video from Fleck is very informative. I'm going to replace my 0.25 BLFC w/ 0.125. Thanks again for all the input!

 

WaterBoyA2

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Looking at the flow graphs for the injectors, you will see the injector flow rate will vary greatly depending on water pressure.
I have learned a bit more about the injector.
Then a question below.

The two flow rates shown in the fleck manual are for the draw/slow rinse function. The draw flow is relatively flat/constant regardless of pressure. The slow rinse flow varies with pressure. They also show the total/sum flow.

The slow rinse is the driving flow for the venturi. The draw flow is the driven flow, sucked out of the tank by the venturi action. As pressure increases, the slow rinse flow increases, but the draw rate is flattish. Note: This is looking at the injector only.

The draw flow rate of the injector down is approximately 0.18 GPM for #00 violet. This is like an orifice flow rate limiter. It applies in the draw direction or in the fill direction.

In the fill direction only the 0.18 GPM flow goes into the brine tank direction. The venturi driving flow is blocked.

If a lower flow rate BLFC is in series (as recommended) then the BLFC controls (limits) the fill rate. With the BLFC removed, the injector is the limiter, 0.18 GPM in my #00 case. I verified this by measuring brine volume when set to 19 min, approximately 3.4 gal.

I expect the replacement BLFC this week. I will have the 0.125 and go back to 25 min if flow.

Now my question:
When I adjusted my fill time to 19, I see that execute properly for one regen cycle. But then the valve overwrites my setting. It is clear calculating the fill time based on the settings: grains capacity, salt treat rate, and BLFC rate. How do I get my manual override settings to stick? Thank you in advance!
 

WaterBoyA2

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Confirm that your valve looks like the one in this photo, including the blue part:
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-yw0...19208/156-full-size__13713.1509478451.jpg?c=2

Be sure that you did this step at the end of setting BF:
18. End of Master Programming Mode
Press the Extra Cycle button to save all settings and exit
Master Programming Mode.
I have the Fleck 5810 XTR2,so not the blue valve linked above. Thank you though. I'll dig more into the settings and play around.
 
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Reach4

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Big difference between XTR2 and SXT. I suggest that you look for a feature called adaptive brining variable refill, and turn that off.
 
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WaterBoyA2

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Big difference between XTR2 and SXT. I suggest that you look for a feature called adaptive brining variable refill, and turn that off.
Confirmed I am and have been set to "Downflow" and not Variable Refill. I wonder if this is an undocumented feature of the valve, a bug in the state machine programming. I've reached out to Pentair and will update if they respond.
 
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