Water heater prv

[tenner]

I have plumbers working on addition to my home and they ran cpvc to addition. The rest of home is copper. When they finished and left,of course, the prv opened and flooded the basement. I have seen this happen where it opens for 10 seconds and sometimes just stays open for 15-20 min. It has now flooded my basement 4 times. No disrespect to plumbers, but these 2 won't listen to anything. I tried to tell them it wasn't water heater, but they bought and installed a new one(Bradford White 30 gallon). They left again and same thing happened. They installed an expansion tank horizontally on hot water side of water heater. That didn't work either. They finally checked water pressure after they told me they haven't done that in 23yrs. They put in pressure reducer after water supply shut off but before water meter. The prv has opened one time since and its been48 hrs. I have a hose connected to sump pump now but they broke my original set up of sump pump, hence the flooding. I've never heard of a water heater discharging all this water at various times and amounts and apparently neither have they. I don't want to see my water bill or electric bill from the fans to dry basement. I hope someone can help. I told the contractor they're not getting back in my house.
Thank you

 

[Redwood]

They have put in an expansion tank, PRV, and a new water heater!
Whatever is wrong they should be fixing for free at this point!

There are 2 valid reasons a T&P valve opens
1 Pressure exceeds 150 PSI
2 Temperature exceeds 210 Degrees F

And 1 invalid reason
1 The T&P has failed

Whatever is wrong it is their problem and they need to fix it!
Or they need to pay someone who can!

Every possible reason for the leak has already been "Repaired" by them!

Wait a minute! You are saying the PRV is leaking... Can you post a picture of this prv?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[tenner]

Hi Redwood,
Thanks for reply. I can't get a picture but it's a Watt's regulator
model#M7211
set 100lbs.
set 180Farenheit
100000 btu/hr??
My water pressure was 90psi till reducer was put on. It's feels about half that. We've lived here for 23 yrs. with no problems. Previous water heater was 4yrs old. This is the 3rd prv on water heater. On the original, code enforcement told them to change from 150psi to 100psi because of cpvc. That's what plumber told me. They also went back to 150psi and it still gushed out and flooded basement.

 

[Redwood]

That number didn't work @ watts

 

[tenner]

I just tried and couldn't find it either. It is the prv on the water heater you're asking about??

 

[Redwood]

no the Info you gave me sounded like a T&P which is on the water heater...
I take it that is what is leaking... The PRV would be near the meter and normally they don't spray water,

 

[Gary Swart]

I believe you are confused about what T/P valves and PRV valves are and what they do. A T/P valve is screwed into the water heater to keep the heater from blowing up if the pressure in the tank exceeds 150 psi or the temperature exceeds 210 degrees. A pressure regulator valve is set in the incoming water supply line to reduce excessive water main pressure. Pressure that is more than around 60 or 65 PSI is considered excessive. Excessive pressure can damage faucets and appliances, and blow out supply hoses. When a pressure regulator valve is installed, it creates a closed system. Briefly, here's what happens with hot water. When it heats in the tank, it expands and has to go somewhere. If you do not have a PRV, your system is considered open and the expanded water can simply be absorbed by the city water main. When a closed system is created, the prevents this expansion from going beyond the PRV so the pressure in the water heat rises quite rapidly and quite a bit. When this pressure reaches 150 psi, the safety valve, or T/P, on the tank opens to relieve the pressure. To cure this problem, a thermal expansion tank needs to be installed between the PRV and the water heater. This is a tank that you pressurize to approximately the same pressure as the PRV is set to. You must use a pressure gauge to do this. The expansion tank has a bladder inside and the expanded water pushes into the tank when needed and as the water cools and the pressure drops, the water in the tank returns to the supply. If these plumber haven't checked water pressure in 23 years, you need a new plumber. Actually, you probably need a new one anyway because it sure sounds like these guys don't know what the heck they are doing. Installing a water heater is not rocket science, but there are several things that must be done properly or there can be serious problems.

 

[MACPLUMB]

Water Heater


2nd All Gary's Information
Also The Thermal Expansion Tank Go's On Cold Water Side Not The Hot Water Side'
You Must Test And Set Bladder Air Pressure While The Water Is Off The Tank

 

[tenner]

Sorry to take so long to get back. I did confuse the T/P with the PRV. Attached is some pics. I told both the plumbers the expansion tank should be on cold water side but they said it doesn't matter. Contractor called and is sending another plumber out that likes to delve into problems like this. I just want one to fix it. It is the T/P valve on water heater that opens and water just gushes and flows.
The PRV is Watts 25AUB Z3
Size 3/4 inch Set 50psi Range 25-75psi Max 300psi 160F

Thanks all for help.

 

[Redwood]

Your plumber is right and wrong on the location of the expansion tank.

He's right the expansion tank will absorb the pressure increase regardless of where it is located in the system. The pressure is Equal throughout the system on the house side of the PRV.

He's wrong about the location of the expansion tank because hot water is detrimental to the life of the bladder in the expansion tank. Service life will be shortened and cost you additional money over time!

I believe this link to the instructions will say just that!
http://www.watts.com/pdf/1915356.pdf

The precharge of the tank should be set to 50 PSI. This setting should be made with the system shut off and a faucet open so the pressure is at 0 PSI.

 

[Jadnashua]

The precharge should be set to your reduced water pressure, whatever they set it to.

 

[Gary Swart]

At the risk of being reduntent, let me rehash a few things. #1. The T/P is functioning properly. It is tripping because the pressure is increasing to the danger point. The reason the T/P is doing that is #2. You have a closed system because of the PRV. #3. Because you have a closed system, you must use an thermal expansion tank, and that should be installed between the PRV and the water heater. #4. The PRV and the expansion tank have to be set to equal pressure setting using a pressure gauge. The tank comes pre-charged, but it still needs to be checked to make sure you have the two balanced. #5. Your plumbers' knowledge is at least in question if not downright bad.

 

[Redwood]

It sounds like it was installed by the 2 All Purpose Grunt Plumbers and they botched it, now the Real Plumber needs to come and fix it!

Hellva way to do business!

 

[tenner]

I'm not sure what the plumber did to the expansion tank. I do know I can't trust them. They tried to tell me that water pressure is same throughout neighborhood and I knew better. Here's a pic of expansion tank. Is there a way of checking it to see the pressure or if it's operating correctly.
Expansion tank is ProFlo model PFT-51
Precharge 40psi Max working pressure 150psi Max working temp 200F

 

[Jadnashua]

There's an air valve on it, just like on your tires. To see what the precharge is, you have to remove the load, the water pressure. This means turning off the water, then opening a faucet or valve somewhere to bleed off any pressure. If you measure it before you bleed of the pressure from the water, that would be the PRV adjustment's value. The precharge should be the same, but you can't measure it with water pressure on it.

If when you check the pressure, any water comes out, the bladder is shot, and the tank needs to be replaced. Pump it up with a hand pump - borrow a bicycle pump if you don't have one.

 

[tenner]

I'd like to thank all for their help. I'll let the new plumber know this and make sure he does it no matter what he says. I came to this site along time ago and just used to read the forums and it helped me with basic plumbing and installling water heater. I liked to call the other 2 plumbers the 3 Stooges. Thanks again and take care.
Bill

 

[Gary Swart]

To give the 3 stooges a glimmer of hope, when the said the water pressure was the same all over the neighborhood, they were correct as long as it is the same city main supplying the water. You can actually contact the city water department and they can tell you what pressure your main is supposed to have. Now, it can vary some depend on usage at a given time, but probably not too much. It would make a difference if most of the houses in the neighborhood were on top of a high hill and you were at the bottom, but unless the change in elevation was extreme it wouldn't make a major difference. Remember, you don't want or need pressure that is much over 60 psi. High pressure can be damaging to appliances, hoses, and fixtures.

 

[SteveW]

Out of curiosity, what is the copper loop around the water meter?

 

[Redwood]

The meter is fed from the tee which is actually more like 2 elbows. the water comes in on the bottom of the tee and is sent out through the meter loop then back into the tee and out the top....

If only it really was a tee and the meter was on a dead loop...

Somehow I don't think the water company would like that!

 

[tenner]

Follow up. Code inspector came out today and I was telling him about the flooding. He said the plumbers weren't supposed to change the T/P valve on water heater to 100psi,but a 100psi pressure valve after cold water supply valve for the pex. He says this isn't code. Its manufacturer's specs. In their defense,and I hate to be in their defense, the code inspector said he just came from 2 other homes that had the same thing. They were all different plumbers.While this was going on, the new plumber called and I let him talk to inspector. So, hopefully this Friday I will be alright. Is anybody familiar with these specs for pex?