Very ignorant newbie questions ...

[DebStep]

Hi, I just found this forum, and while it answers a lot of questions in a general way, none seem to exactly address our situation. Here's the deal ...

We have a 445' deep well drilled through solid limestone. When it was drilled, they hit water at 80' and again at 110', but the refresh rate is only around 30 GPM (if I recall correctly) so the driller suggested the pump be set somewhere around 200' to give us a longer water column for use. My husband and I set the 2" galvanized pipe and 1/2" stainless steel sucker rod for the well ourselves using only a homemade tripod and a rancher's helper to keep it all from falling to the bottom of the well. It was nerve wracking, but we managed to do it in two days, and then set an old-fashioned hand pump on top so we would never need electricity to get water. We were really proud of ourselves, but ...

We found out quickly that pumping water by hand from 200' down is HARD WORK! After two years of spending an hour every couple of days filling 5 gallon buckets and dozens of water jugs and hauling them an extra 300' to the house for use, we decided to get a better system. We traded a guy all our pipe and sucker rod in exchange for him to hang an Aermotor/Franklin pump at 225' using 1" (maybe 1-1/4", I'm not entirely sure) poly pipe. From there, we set a 1500 gallon above ground water tank and rigged a system to pump water directly into the house from that tank using a cheap 110V fresh water transfer pump. It is super primitive--like our entire homestead--and only delivers water to the sinks, shower and washer when a faucet is turned on. The transfer pump works each time a line is open, but the pump in the well only cycles on when we need to fill the cistern. (Toilet is composting--no water for that.) It has worked fine for 22 years.

I guess it was inevitably going to go south at some point, so when everything ground to a halt two days ago, we figured it was time to pull the old pump and get a new one down there. The problem is that we are also smack in the middle of an extreme drought and we thing the thing that finally did in the old pump was that the well went dry at that level and the motor burned up. (We still can't tell for sure because we haven't pulled it out yet.) So, what we're thinking is that we want to get a pump capable of being dropped down to around 350'-400' and able to fill that 1500 gallon cistern every week or so (we also use the water for garden irrigation periodically in summer). We are not made of money, so we really can't afford the Grundfos and high-end Franklin pumps that can easily do the job, so I'm wondering if anyone has recommendations for a 2-wire pump of maybe 1-1/2 to 2HP that can do the job? As I mentioned, there is not a lot of demand on the pump because it only needs to fill the cistern and is not on for usually a week at a time (probably why the original one lasted so long), when it may run anywhere from 1 to 6 or 8 hours (parts of our homestead require watering directly from the well.)

The other questions I have are:
#1 - Our well only has iron casing to 10' (required by law in our area) and is not cased--except in solid rock--below that. Does it need a "shroud"? I saw that someone mentioned that if a pump is below the casing it needs one, but I have never heard of that, and I don't know if the one in there now has one.
#2 - We want to replace all the poly pipe while we are at it, and I am wondering if we need 1-1/4" or 1" SIDR 9 200 PSI Potable Water Poly Pipe? The pumps I have looked at seem to have 1-1/4" female connectors on the pump but I know you can get a reducer adapter to go from threads on the pump to a barb for the poly-pipe, just not sure if that is a good idea?
#3 - The pipe that the guy put down the well originally, had wires actually included in the pipe (like all one piece--embedded somehow). I can't find anything like that, and I'm wondering if that is a specialty item or if anyone even makes it these days. It is probably really expensive it is does exist, so I'm thinking we will buy 10 or 12 gauge wire to attach to the pump. What I want to know is whether there are potable-water-safe methods for attaching the wire to the pipe? I keep seeing people using electrical tape, but that stuff is toxic! I really don't want that in our drinking water. Are zip ties a good option? Anything else that is "certified" safe for drinking water?

I'm sure I will have other questions before we are done with this (we're doing it ourselves) but this is long enough as it is. Thanks for reading--sorry about the length!

 

[Reach4]

We have a 445' deep well drilled through solid limestone. When it was drilled, they hit water at 80' and again at 110', but the refresh rate is only around 30 GPM (if I recall correctly)

It does not refresh at 30 gpm.... That would be a very high refill rate. Maybe 3 gpm or even 0.3 gpm.

One of the cheap pumps will need more power and bigger wire. Usually 15 gpm pumps are cheaper than 5 gpm pumps. 5 gpm pumps have more stages. Do not make the mistake of confusing the HP with the lifting power. If you are lucky, a 1.5 HP 15 gpm pump will lift as well as a 1/2 HP 5 gpm pump.


1. What diameter is the well? If 5 inches or more, a flow inducer is good.

2. Can you run 240 volts to power the pump? Or do you power the well pump with a 120V generator?

If your refill rate is low, you can get a device that will sense running out of water, and will shut down the well pump for a while.

 

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[DebStep]

Thanks for replying! I told you I was very ignorant! I guess I heard the number 30 and I guess I mistook that for the refresh rate. (We do live in a karst area so I thought that sounded reasonable.) I also was mistaken about the length of the well casing--it's actually 80' not 10'. The well diameter is 6", and yes, we would be using 240V. There are some super cheap pumps on Amazon (I was looking at this one ...
VEVOR Deep Well Submersible Pump, 2HP/1500W 230V/60Hz, 37GPM Flow 427 ft Head, with 33 ft Electric Cord, 4 inch Stainless Steel Water Pumps for Industrial, Irrigation & Home Use, IP68 Waterproof GradeVEVOR Deep Well Submersible Pump, 2HP/1500W 230V/60Hz, 37GPM Flow 427 ft Head, with 33 ft Electric Cord, 4 inch Stainless Steel Water Pumps.

Does that seem like a reasonable option or is it TOO cheap, or even more HP than is really necessary? I really don't even know how/where to begin looking.

About the "flow inducer" ... I don't really understand how putting the pump inside something can make it cooler--it seems counter-intuitive. I'm pretty sure we never had one on the old pump and it has lasted 22 years, so I'm kind of scratching my head over that.

We were supposed to have something on the pump that sensed when it was getting dry, so it may not have been working or the level may not actually have dropped lower than the pump, and it just broke from old age. I guess we won't know for sure until we pull it out.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Reach4]

The motor generates heat. The water takes the heat, and if the water flows past the outside of the motor, it removes heat much better. If you go for a cheap Hallmark etc pump, it will probably generate more heat because you would need higher power to generate the lift. A cheap 2 HP pump will generate at least 4 times as much heat as a 1/2 HP in a given amount of time. A "37 gpm" 2 HP pump will take a lot more amps than the more desirable 1/2 HP pumps that have sufficient lift. You need to account for that in running wires.

The flow inducer runs the water past the outside of the motor.

There can be another possible advantage. If there is no flow inducer, there is turbulence at the intake screen. That could erode the well wall a bit. If that section of wall happens to be some stratum inferior to solid limestone, that could be a negative.

What about the power availability at the well for the pump? Available power can be a factor in choosing a pump. Whether that power is from commercial power or a generator can be a factor. Some pumps are harder for a generator to start than others.

 

[Bannerman]

Regardless of brand, submersible pumps are typically designed with the electric motor located at the bottom, with the water inlet screen located above the motor, with the actual water pump at the very top, just under where the drop pipe is connected.

In many wells, water enters the well from above the pump. Although the entire pump assembly will be fully submerged in water, the water that is drawn into the inlet screen will be flowing downward from above the pump, and the water surrounding the electric motor will often remain fairly still.

As stated above by R4, to draw heat away to keep the motor cool, requires water flow past/over the motor.

A flow inducer is a short section of plastic pipe that has an internal diameter that is slightly larger than the outer diameter of the pump. The inducer pipe will be clamped and sealed to the pump, above the inlet screen, typically using band clamps and waterproof tape, to prevent water from entering above the inlet screen.

All water drawn into the inlet screen will then be forced to enter from the open end of the inducer pipe below the motor, which ensures there will be rapid water flow over the motor whenever the pump is operating to ensure the motor is cooled.

Even if the water enters your well from below your pump and is drawn upwards, placing a 4" or smaller diameter pump in a 6" diameter well, provides considerable space between the pump and the walls of the well, thereby reducing the amount of water flowing over the motor to provide reliable cooling. Just as above, an inducer pipe will ensure there will be rapid water flow over the motor.

 

[Valveman]

The deeper you set the pump the harder it will be to do, he more horsepower is needed, and the more important a shroud is.

Probably don't need to go much deeper or use such a large pump if you add something like a Cycle Sensor to protect the pump from running dry. Then maybe something like a 5 GPM, 1/2 HP pump set at about 300' is all you need.

Cycle Sensor Pump Monitors – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

The Cycle Sensor is a pump system monitor that detects Rapid Cycle and Dry Run and reacts to either of these conditions by shutting down your pump. It does not prevent these events but protects your pump from damage in the event they occur. Videos with more information can be seen here.

cyclestopvalves.com