Toilet Flange placement, short toilet recess

Users who are viewing this thread

Jasesun23

Member
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
NYC
Redoing my downstairs bathroom. Even though its debated it seems the consensus is to place the toilet flange onto of the finished floor. However my toilet flange lip's thickness is 15/32. And the recess under the toilet is only 18/32. Included some pics. So with the toilet flat that leaves 3/32" for a wax ring or gasket. You can see in the last picture, with the toilet flange pressed up against the toilet with no gasket and a level to show how the toilet would lay on the floor there is barely a tiny gap
This is a American Standard toilet form Lowes that I bought for $200 bucks. From reading the forum it seems cheaply made toilets have short recesses.

So is my only option (keeping the current toilet) to make the flange flush with the finished floor? That would give 15/32 of an inch for a wax ring or gasket.

thanks in advanced
Jase
 

Attachments

  • toiletrecess.jpg
    toiletrecess.jpg
    57.2 KB · Views: 210
  • toiletflangelevel.jpg
    toiletflangelevel.jpg
    38.6 KB · Views: 199
  • flangethickness.jpg
    flangethickness.jpg
    58 KB · Views: 208

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,991
Reaction score
3,774
Points
113
Location
IL
So is my only option (keeping the current toilet) to make the flange flush with the finished floor? That would give 15/32 of an inch for a wax ring or gasket.
A better option is to use a closet flange with a stainless steel or cast iron, and to place that flange on the finished floor.

However, if top of the closet flange is flush with the floor, that works fine too.
 

Jasesun23

Member
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
NYC
Got a stainless steel closet flange. Its only slightly less thick than the all pvc one. So I'm going to have to make the closet flange flush with the floor given my circumstance, right?

Another issue I'm worried about is the new Stainless steel closet flange drops right into the 4" pipe. There is even a small amount of play/wiggle room. Will glue "expand/melt" this enough to get a good seal? My all pvc closet flange takes some work to get into the 4 inch pipe and is a snug fit without glue. I tested 5 of the same closet flanges and that model they all just dropped easily in. Also tried 3 different 4" pipes to make sure it wasn't the pipe that was bigger than usual.
 

Attachments

  • ss pvc.jpg
    ss pvc.jpg
    90.2 KB · Views: 193
  • sspvcthickness.jpg
    sspvcthickness.jpg
    76.7 KB · Views: 174

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,991
Reaction score
3,774
Points
113
Location
IL
Is part of your reason for wanting to not mount atop the flooring because you don't want to drill screw holes in the porcelain tile? I can see that. An Oatey 435192 spacer under the ring would raise the flange up by 1/4 inch per spacer.

Looking at your photos, I think you want the hole in the finished floor to clear that PVC that you are measuring to. A 5 or 6-inch hole in your flooring clears that pvc, I think.
 
Last edited:

Jasesun23

Member
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
NYC
No, let me try to explain it better. I have no problem mounting it above the finished floor, I've even read that's the best way to do it. It's that the floor flange stick up just under 1/2", 15/32 to be exact, from the top of the floor. The actual toilet only has slightly over a half an inch or 18/32" between the outside of the horn and the bottom of the toilet sitting flat.
That means I have approx 1/16" of space to fit a gasket or wax seal. Wouldn't that squeeze out 99% of the wax, worried it wouldn't get a good seal. And I couldn't use a Better than Wax seal as that needs about 3/8 of an inch space.
So my problem is not that I need a spacer, i need the opposite of a spacer I need more room between the toilet and the flange. The only way I can see doing that is to have the flange flush with the subfloor and tile around it. That would give me about 1/2" or maybe a little more to fit a wax seal or foam seal in.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,991
Reaction score
3,774
Points
113
Location
IL
You don't want the PVC to sit on the floor surface (orange line). You want the stainless ring to sit on the floor surface (green line). You want the PVC inside the big hole that you make in the tile.
img_3.jpg


The spacer(s) would only be considered if you made a 7.25 inch or so hole in the tile, totally clearing the flange. If you make maybe a 5.5 inch diameter hole in the tile, that sounds pretty ideal. If you made a 4.5 inch hole in the tile, the PVC would sit on the tile, and the metal ring would sit up in the air a bit.

Incidentally, the mounting holes are on a 6.125 or 6.0 inch circle, I think.

If you used a Oatey 43495 "level fit" flange, it would not have that big plastic thing that could keep the metal elevated.

Genova Products 75158S would not get glued in, and makes its seal with rubber flaps. That would let you remove and replace the flange easily.
 
Last edited:

Jasesun23

Member
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
NYC
I took the calipers. If I let it sit on on the pvc part of the stainless steel flange it measures .422. If I cut the hole big enough to rest on the outside of the metal flange it measure .362. Thats gives me an additonal 1/16 of an inch. So now I have 1/8 of an inch to fit a wax seal into. Is that enough room or would most of the wax just squish out.

Also what about there being some play when I put the Closet flange into the 4" pipe. Is that something I should be concerned about. The all PVC closet flange I can't even fit fully in which is like most PVC connections I've dealt with

Reach4 , really appreciate you taking the time to help me. So thanks.
 

Attachments

  • metalflangepve.jpg
    metalflangepve.jpg
    50 KB · Views: 183
  • outsidemetalflange.jpg
    outsidemetalflange.jpg
    57.9 KB · Views: 220

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,991
Reaction score
3,774
Points
113
Location
IL
Is that enough room or would most of the wax just squish out.
0.01 is enough for wax, but an interference fit would not work.

For a waxless, you need more space.

With wax, dry-fit and position shims. Then lift the toilet, put the wax ring onto the stainless ring, and set the toilet onto the wax and shims. The reason for having the shims in place is to avoid expanding the wax once it is compressed.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,991
Reaction score
3,774
Points
113
Location
IL
On your caliper, there is a little rod that extends out of the bottom. That is for measuring depths.

I wonder if when you measured toiletrecess.jpg that you were measuring to a place which the closet flange would clear, rather than where the stainless ring would hit.

img_4.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jasesun23

Member
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
NYC
Reach4 I think I'll be fine installing the closet flange on top of the finished floor even though I'll only have a little space for wax. Searched the forums and post say the same as you, as long as there is a little space wax will work. I'm going to get a wax ring with no rubber flange/horn in it that might take up space.

This is what the complete PVC closet flange looks like on some plywood I mocked up. The stainless steel one will even be a tiny bit lower giving me more space. And then the pic of the toilet without any seal on top of the flange. It sits level, no rocking at all front to back or side to side. So that tells me for sure the closet flange isn't too high, which I really already knew. So even if there is only a tiny amount of space it will just squish most of the wax down leaving a little bit to seal

I just wish they made a 1/4 wax ring, that would solve all my problems. No worry of an inch of wax needing to be compressed down and a bunch getting into the drain and pushed out the sides of the toilet to clean up.
 

Attachments

  • pvcflange in.jpg
    pvcflange in.jpg
    87.1 KB · Views: 175
  • toiletonflage.jpg
    toiletonflage.jpg
    75.1 KB · Views: 183

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,991
Reaction score
3,774
Points
113
Location
IL
I just wish they made a 1/4 wax ring, that would solve all my problems. No worry of an inch of wax needing to be compressed down and a bunch getting into the drain and pushed out the sides of the toilet to clean up.
The worry should not be squishing outside onto the tile, but squishing inside and partially blocking the path. And given the horn on the toilet, that is unlikely.

Wax is easy to cut or mold by hand. If you put on some nitrile gloves, you can mold it to the exact shape and size you want. I think a standard size wax ring would not need cutting.

You could put a few blobs of wax, or modeling clay on the ring. Dry fit. Lift. See how much depth survived the squish. I'll bet it is more than 1/4. I am thinking closer to 1/2.
 

Terry

The Plumbing Wizard
Staff member
Messages
29,688
Reaction score
3,252
Points
113
Location
Bothell, Washington
Website
terrylove.com
If you set a regular wax ring down on the flange and then drop the bowl down on it, the horn of the bowl will prevent any blockage there.
Have you checked first to see if the bowl needs shimming? Check for shimming first, shim if needed, pull the bowl up, drop the wax down and then the bowl.
 

Jasesun23

Member
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
NYC
The worry should not be squishing outside onto the tile, but squishing inside and partially blocking the path. And given the horn on the toilet, that is unlikely.

Wax is easy to cut or mold by hand. If you put on some nitrile gloves, you can mold it to the exact shape and size you want. I think a standard size wax ring would not need cutting.

You could put a few blobs of wax, or modeling clay on the ring. Dry fit. Lift. See how much depth survived the squish. I'll bet it is more than 1/4. I am thinking closer to 1/2.

Reach4, I had a waxless foam seal from home Depot that I tested on it. It's 1/2 inch tick without any compression and I read it will compressed in half to 1/4. With it on and sitting on the toilet I could get the toilet to lay flat on the floor. It would rock. I believe I have less than a quarter inch, closer to 1/8
 

Jasesun23

Member
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
NYC
If you set a regular wax ring down on the flange and then drop the bowl down on it, the horn of the bowl will prevent any blockage there.
Have you checked first to see if the bowl needs shimming? Check for shimming first, shim if needed, pull the bowl up, drop the wax down and then the bowl.
Terry I'll make sure to set up shims first as soon as I get the tile laid. This was more of a discussion to see how I should proceed. I'm going to lay tile, then put the flange in top of the tiled floor, then use was ring. I will make sure to get the tiles as level as possible but also use shims if necessary
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks