Bannerman
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Example of clamp on amp meter.
Testing a well that hasn't been used in a while
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Oops. I was wrong, and at least part of my error was getting seconds and minutes mixed up.
500 ft of 1 inch pipe holds 20.4 gallons.
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Watson524
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Example of clamp on amp meter.
Yep, I've definitely seen those, just never used one. Do you have to hold it so the wire isn't touching the device or can I "hang" it around the 2 wires to get the amps?
Watson524
Member
well that DEFINITELY didn't happen so something is up. I half wonder if from sitting the screen I assume on the bottom is just plugged up with water not moving, biofilm type of stuff or hard water mineral deposits
Must be around 1 wire only. If you go around two wires, the fields will cancel, and you will read close to zero.
Clamps are insulated. Touching is OK.
One possibility is that there will be zero amps, because a connection is broken. If there was a good connection, but the pump was locked up, I would think the generator would have had a different sound due to the high current draw.
When they pull the pump, note the depth of the waterline. I assume there will be a mark where the water-air interface was for so long. I am not proposing to watch for the pipe being wet.
Anyway, take photos of the two pump labels on each of the old and new pumps for interest.
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Fitter30
Well-Known Member
Be sure to ask well guy the water level both high and low.
Watson524
Member
Ah interesting, I thought because this is 220 that both wires would carry 110 each and have current in both but it sounds like one acts as a neutral? Electric has never been something I've had to deal with much so I think it's still confusing.... if you need me to rebuild a carburetor tho, I'm your girl, lol!!
I'm hoping it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg to have this done but I'm going to ask them for an estimate first. I figure the pump itself will probably cost 500 or so, but I'm hoping pulling the pump isn't TOO expensive. I only have a reference from when we built our house across the road and there was a 12k allowance for well and septic and I assume the drilling is the most expensive part.
Currents, and the resulting magnetic fields, have both a magnitude, and a direction. They add "algebraically". That clamp probe converts the magnetic fields to electricity, but if the fields are equal magnitude, but opposite direction, they cancel out.
That is how a ground fault interrupter outlet works. Two wires go through the same loop. Normally the current each way will be the same magnitude but opposite direction. They cancel. But if you stand in water, and stick a finger into the wires past the sense loop, some current goes through your finger and takes a different path. The ground fault interrupter senses the difference, and turns off the circuit quickly-- limiting the shock.
If you looped one wire around the clamp so it goes through twice in the same direction, then the meter would read double the current.
The amp reading will tell you what is happening. Screen or pump clogged would cause low amps.
Even at 15 GPM the velocity in 1" pipe is only like 5 feet per second. Gonna take a minute or two for water to reach the top of a 500' string.
Watson524
Member
Picked up the clamp on amp meter today (will leave that test for tomorrow) and stopped at the well shop. They had an electronic copy of the drilling record etc from 12/1/73!! Depth of well is 625', pump is set at 480', there was water at 90' and the flow is 4gpm. Guy said because the flow wasn't great, that's likely why they went so deep so there was plenty of reserve. 41' of casing. Pump is "T754A". Guy said that was likely an old jacuzzi number for a 3/4hp and not sure how much info there'd be on it today so I'll have to look on the interwebs and see what I can find.
He said if they have to pull it it wouldn't be too bad price-wise and give him a call after I test the amps. He said it COULD be plugged up at the bottom but thought that'd be weird since it had been working fine, said the sitting shouldn't have done anything crazy but you never know.
Another point not related to the pump I noticed is that where I live now and my old house, the well cap isn't round. There's a bump out on it where the small conduit comes up the side (or I should say goes down the side) of the well pipe to go under ground and carry the electric into the house. On this well in question, there's nothing like that so I don't know if the wire goes through the pitless adapter? The wire tube and the water tube come out in the same spot in the yard. I figure the pitless is probably down 4 - 6' so I might just take the backhoe down there and scratch around to get the top 2 feet or so off and then do the rest by hand because I sure as hell don't want to rip anything out unexpectedly. The cap has a ring with 4 bolts into it.
For a fun point of reference, drilling 625' in December of 73 cost $2,812.50 and the pump was $351.
He said if they have to pull it it wouldn't be too bad price-wise and give him a call after I test the amps. He said it COULD be plugged up at the bottom but thought that'd be weird since it had been working fine, said the sitting shouldn't have done anything crazy but you never know.
Another point not related to the pump I noticed is that where I live now and my old house, the well cap isn't round. There's a bump out on it where the small conduit comes up the side (or I should say goes down the side) of the well pipe to go under ground and carry the electric into the house. On this well in question, there's nothing like that so I don't know if the wire goes through the pitless adapter? The wire tube and the water tube come out in the same spot in the yard. I figure the pitless is probably down 4 - 6' so I might just take the backhoe down there and scratch around to get the top 2 feet or so off and then do the rest by hand because I sure as hell don't want to rip anything out unexpectedly. The cap has a ring with 4 bolts into it.
For a fun point of reference, drilling 625' in December of 73 cost $2,812.50 and the pump was $351.
Franklin bought Jacuzzi. That is where the "J" in their J-class pumps came from.
So 8x inflation since then sounds about right. New pump will not be 8x however.
Your wiring might be 2 ft down, or 18 inches down.
What is the ID of your well?
I guess you are sure you have a pitless adapter.
Wire thru the pitless adapter would be highly unusual. Think of what happens when you would lift the pump. If the pitless had an electrical disconnect system, that would be handy... but hard to work on.
Watson524
Member
Thanks for that tip, it will help in my search
Well thank God for small favors!! Tho before I get too excited, are you thinking the new pump would be more or less than 8x?? LOL! I'm assuming less based on some googling I've done.
So it's possible that the wire just got drilled through the metal pipe itself somewhere below grade? Huh. Since I can't say I've ever seen a well where it doesn't come all the way to the top and then a conduit you can see going down the side, I never thought about that possibility. Shovel digging it is!! LOL!
I don't actually know, by looking at it I'd say it's about a 6" pipe but not knowing wall thickness, hard to say. I can't imagine the wall thickness would be more than 1/2" right? Can get diameter/circumference tomorrow
I assumed so because nothing comes out of the well cap itself (not thinking of above where they'd drill through somewhere further down which would make for a mess for pulling it up I'd think?). Also, in the attached file the well guy printed for me, I THINK what I have circled that at the time cost $45 says "pitless".
Huh ok, I guess I was thinking it was more like my chandelier lift in my old house. The ceiling fixture had a plate on it and wires up into the attic. On the top of the chain of the chandelier they added a contact plate that was hidden in the trim piece. When you're lifting, it would automatically kill the circuit when those 2 came in contact so that you couldn't over crank the lift, it just killed power. It would be handy if the well WAS something like that where when you slid the pump/pipe line down into the "bracket" on the pitless, it engaged power, but then you could just slide everything straight up (if that makes sense). Maybe I should design something?? LOL!
Attachments
Less... maybe 5x from the dealer, but that will include some etc probably. It is hard to know the equivalent pump. There are cheaper pumps.
Nice to daydream about, but I expect it has been considered.
How much extra wire do you have? The splice would normally go under the new well cap. You would run 1 inch plastic conduit into the ground.
What diameter is your well?
Watson524
Member
I have MORE than enough 10/2 solid to get me to where I need to go but I don't know if it's rated for burial in conduit. The submersible pump wire I have is the 12awg and it's 3 wire unfortunately. In looking at my house, it looks like that well is a 3 wire based on what's coming in and going to the pressure switch. I guess that makes sense because that well was drilled when they got plumbing in the old farm house in the mid 50s. I suspect that's where the 12awg submersible pump wire I have comes from. And to think I just gave away some decently sized coils of 1" black conduit LOL! Tho, that looks like about the size coming up with the 2 wires now so I shouldn't have to completely dig up the 50 feet or so.
I was incorrectly thinking maybe the well did not have a pitless adapter, but instead had a well seal, with water and electric thru the top. But that is unlikely, because presumably something is holding the drop pipe up.
Look down the well. See the pitless. Is it maybe 40 to 48 inches below ground level? At night use a bright flashlight. In the bright sun, use a mirror to light the pitless.
Feeding a 3/4 hp motor with a pair of 10 awg the whole way supports a path length (across and down) of 760 ft. If 12 awg, then 480 total feet.
I expect you could run 14 or 12 to the well, and splice into the 10. There is a way to compute how far you can go if you are going far.
For running new cable to the well, you are supposed to run 2 or 3 power conductors plus ground. You are supposed to ground the well cap if it is metal. If using existing power wires, I think they get grandfathered in.
Watson524
Member
Can't open the well. The cap is something I've not seen before with this ring that comes down the outside of the pipe when the 4 bolts come off the cap. We took the 4 bolts off but cap wouldn't lift. I assumed the gasket was just stuck on and I didn't want to mess with it so we bolted the ring back up to under the cap. The well guy today got concerned we had taken the bolts off because there's some kind of compression thing inside (wasn't quite clear what he meant) and you don't normally take the bolts all the way out because something can drop down inside. He asked if things screwed back in tight vs just spinning and I said yes so he was relieved and said it likely is just the gasket sticking so after that scare, I'm not messing with that part. Don't want to cause any other issues.
Do you know when the grounding of the well cap came into play? I know we drilled the well at our old house in 2002 and I saw no grounding system out there at all and definitely don't see one at the current house drilled in the 50s.
Post a photo. That sounds like a well seal. Do not remove the bolts or nuts on a well cap, because the bottom of the well cap can fall down and really mess things up badly. I guess the well guy put the fear into you. That's good.
If you have a well seal, there is no pitless. What is the ID of your well?
Installing a pitless adapter would be good. If you have a well seal with water coming out of the top, you have to take measures to prevent freezing.
If you have a well seal, there is no pitless. What is the ID of your well?
Installing a pitless adapter would be good. If you have a well seal with water coming out of the top, you have to take measures to prevent freezing.
I do not. Mine is not grounded.
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Watson524
Member
Ok I'll get a picture early tomorrow. Any well "seal" I've seen online has holes in the top of it, this doesn't. The top is a solid "plate" and has the well driller's name stamped on it. And yes, scared the beejeezus right out of me!
Don't know the ID of the well, wasn't noted on anything I could read on the paperwork I got from them so best I'll be able to do tomorrow is measure OD circumference/diameter.
Then how did you access the wires?
Anyway, that does not sound like a well seal. A well seal would have a plumbing fitting through the top, and that is what carries the weight of the drop pipe and the pump.
Watson524
Member
50' away where they used to come up in the crawlspace of the old mobile home that was there, next to where the black water flex pipe used to come out of the ground and go up into the pressure tank in the bathroom of the mobile home.
I should add that seal bolts appear to be in over the well hole itself (more to the inside of the circle), on ours, the bolts are on the extreme outside of the cap going down into the ring on the outside of the well cap.
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