Spacer used for toilet flange repair. Toilet leaks at base. Help!

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Harold Balls

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I figured out what it was -- I think. So far, 30 minutes and no leak. I do not believe I was properly compressing/fitting the rubber Fluidmaster ring on top of the toilets' horn (in lieu of a wax ring). There's not really a way for me -- at least with my skills, to "feel" the proper seating, and I have never done it before -- always used a tried and true wax ring that is much more forgiving and less exact. Moreover, I had never used a Fluidmaster before. So I got tired of using Fluidmaster's method of written instruction of placing its product directly on the flange and then seating the toilet on top. I put it on the toilet first. No problem thereafter. Thanks for your help in troubleshooting. Ultimately, it made me think more about how and why water could possibly be penetrating what should have been a perfect rubber seal. There is no other explanation than my sloppy placement of the Fluidmaster onto the toilet horn and not properly seating it. Sadly, it must have had space between it and the horn, causing a leak. Simple as that! I'll write back in a year or more if I have problems with my Toto NX1 (different location upstairs) that I paid for installation two months ago.
 
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Harold Balls

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I'd recommend wax . this isn't working wax works good with a little care

Well, several hours later and a very small, manageable trail of water leaking from the toilet's base -- but a leak is a leak and is unacceptable, of course. I might give up on the Fluidmaster. I called the manufacturer's help line and it said to try stacking two of them for better compression and that the leak had to be related to insufficient compression and seal around the toilet's horn via Fluidmaster's product. Ideas on that? There should be enough compression with just one of these Fluidmaster products, since my jury-rigged/jerry-rigged "flange" sits 1/4 inch above ground. Double down and roll the dice again with two Fluidmasters? I still can't figure out where the water is penetrating my supposed 100% rubber seal. It is obviously not 100%. I'm not opposed to finding something (repair kit) to replace the spacer I'm using and starting over, but I haven't seen anything that will easily fit on top of the damaged flange that has little to no space around its perimeter, without a lot of work.
 

Reach4

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Any chance there is blockage in the drain line? You could run a garden hose full blast down the hole to check for that.

Does this leaking occur only when you flush? If not, the leak could be from under the tank.
. I called the manufacturer's help line and it said to try stacking two of them for better compression and that the leak had to be related to insufficient compression and seal around the toilet's horn via Fluidmaster's product. Ideas on that?
That doesn't seem right, but if you need more compression/thickness, use the black thing you removed. How much higher does the top of the blue sit higher than the floor with the toilet off?

The toilet could have a defect. I am not saying that is likely.

What caused you to start this project? Rocking toilet?
 

Harold Balls

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Any chance there is blockage in the drain line? You could run a garden hose full blast down the hole to check for that.

Does this leaking occur only when you flush? If not, the leak could be from under the tank.

That doesn't seem right, but if you need more compression/thickness, use the black thing you removed. How much higher does the top of the blue sit higher than the floor with the toilet off?

The toilet could have a defect. I am not saying that is likely.

What caused you to start this project? Rocking toilet?

Thanks for your questions and the time you took to carefully think them out. I'm impressed. My answers are as follows:


Q. Any chance there is blockage in the drain line? You could run a garden hose full blast down the hole to check for that.
A. Not likely but I cannot rule that out. No problems with leakage with the prior toilet that was installed until three days ago, but the conditions now are different, i.e., I purposely tore/removed the broken part off of the original flange, installed a spacer on top of it, and installed the FluidMaster on top of that.

Q. Does this leaking occur only when you flush?
A. No. I left it alone for a few hours and came back to find a very small trail coming out the right front of the base. I wiped up the trail, left it for another few hours and found another trail. So it's just a very slow leak.

Q. If not, the leak could be from under the tank.
A. Where under the tank could the source of the leak be other than through a gap I have inadvertently left between the horn and the Fluidmaster?

Q. That doesn't seem right, but if you need more compression/thickness, use the black thing you removed.
A. That's what I thought. I asked about that, but the Fluidmaster phone rep said to use two of the blue things (by buying another). I'm tempted to do that just to see if it works. I would welcome an $8.00 fix. Or, maybe a $3.00 messy wax ring would do the trick. I just don't have the knowledge and experience with plumbing to make a competent assessment of problem and solution. I thought I had the solution until the slow, thin trail of water appeared.

Q. How much higher does the top of the blue sit higher than the floor with the toilet off?
A. The spacer sits about 1/4 inch or just slightly higher off the floor. The blue thing sits probably another 1/4 inch to 1/3 inch higher than that. I really can't recall about the blue thing since right now it's under the toilet. But won't be in about twelve minutes when I remove the toilet again.

Q. The toilet could have a defect. I am not saying that is likely.
A. It may not be likely but it is possible. It's a second-hand toilet I just got. Owner claims all is good with it; I don't think he would lie, but he could have. He's doing a remodel and is getting rid of two of them and giving me the second one soon. He claims his young son covers his ears and gets scared every time either is flushed. The one at issue that he already gave me is a Gerber 21-377 or 21-372 (both numbers are oddly stamped on the bowl) mated with a Gerber 28-380 tank that is installed with a Flushmate 503 pressure-assist unit. The Flushmate 503 was attractive to have and that's why I swapped out the one I had for it. (I looked up the Flushmate serial number and it was not on the recall list.)

Q. What caused you to start this project? Rocking toilet?
A. Yes. It wasn't a serious issue, but the house inspector caught it before move-in and told me the flange was likely broken. I wanted to take care of it before it became an issue. And, installing the Gerber with Flushmate seemed like a fun and simple learning project whilst repairing the broken flange. Three days later . . . boy, was I wrong.
 
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Trump the Plumber

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It sounds like an perfect thing to me. A toelet installed with a rubber. I get it. I mean with a rubber thing, a seal, a gasket. So many words I can use here. So they said to stack some rubber things, so that make sense. Not messy like wax. I mena why have wax? Bee that it may, wait, did I just say bee? Then it's a bumble bee, or a honey bee. I read one time, that wax wasn't made buy bees. You stakced stuff ove rthe flange. Is that yhelpijg? I don't know, itf that 's the way i wouild do it.
 

Harold Balls

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It sounds like an perfect thing to me. A toelet installed with a rubber. I get it. I mean with a rubber thing, a seal, a gasket. So many words I can use here. So they said to stack some rubber things, so that make sense. Not messy like wax. I mena why have wax? Bee that it may, wait, did I just say bee? Then it's a bumble bee, or a honey bee. I read one time, that wax wasn't made buy bees. You stakced stuff ove rthe flange. Is that yhelpijg? I don't know, itf that 's the way i wouild do it.

Without trying at all to be discourteous, I have no idea what you are trying to communicate and don't want to make a mistake guessing. Could you please try again?
 

Reach4

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Q. If not, the leak could be from under the tank.
A. Where under the tank could the source of the leak be other than through a gap I have inadvertently left between the horn and the Fluidmaster?
Thru the bolts that hold the tank in place would be one prime suspect. This picture is from https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/loose-tank-bolts-big-mess.41714/ . Look through that thread.
ecodrake_tankbottom.jpg


Your test would be to close the stop valve at the wall to prevent the tank from refilling. Carefully note the level of the water, and put the lid back. A time later, such as 24 hours, check to see if the water in the tank has dropped more than a tiny amount.

If you reassembled the toilet, you might have under-tightened. Usually the porcelain is tightened so that three places almost touch at the same time. If they actually touch at the same time there is no further give, and the porcelain could crack. A standard business card can be used to gauge if they are close enough as you press the tank to increase the gap. If you cannot get a business card through stop tightening. If there is room for two business cards for one of the contact point when you deflect the tank, tighten more.

You can also try sticking paper or paper towel between the tank and bowl. If the paper gets wet at all, that shows the source of the water.

Or you could just replace the toilet.
 
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Jeff H Young

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Harrold Balls, Maybe you havent diagnosed problem leaks around ring occur when toilet is flushed .... not when its just sitting. could be a cracked bowl the crack can be underneath and not visable
 

Harold Balls

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Thru the bolts that hold the tank in place would be one prime suspect. This picture is from https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/loose-tank-bolts-big-mess.41714/ . Look through that thread.
ecodrake_tankbottom.jpg


Your test would be to close the stop valve at the wall to prevent the tank from refilling. Carefully note the level of the water, and put the lid back. A time later, such as 24 hours, check to see if the water in the tank has dropped more than a tiny amount.

If you reassembled the toilet, you might have under-tightened. Usually the porcelain is tightened so that three places almost touch at the same time. If they actually touch at the same time there is no further give, and the porcelain could crack. A standard business card can be used to gauge if they are close enough as you press the tank to increase the gap. If you cannot get a business card through stop tightening. If there is room for two business cards for one of the contact point when you deflect the tank, tighten more.

You can also try sticking paper or paper towel between the tank and bowl. If the paper gets wet at all, that shows the source of the water.

Or you could just replace the toilet.

I like your thorough level of analyzation. But, it is not a tank leak. Even with a bolt leak, there would still be water draining down the side or back of the toilet to find a path to the floor. It's not; it's definitely arriving and penetrating the right front side of the base of the bowl and its path is a seam to a floor tile. In addition, the tank uses a Flushmate 503, so the water is contained exclusively within the black plastic pressure-assist vessel and I wouldn't know an easy way to measure it. Only a tiny layer of water is in the tank bottom, not even 1mm. I'm going back to Home Depot to try a different sealing product, since, after affixing the FluidMaster seal differently, the problem almost resolved (by 90%). I'm confident the leak is related to the FluidMaster inability to seal as my flange/spacer is about 1/4 inch above floor and from what I have read, many users are disappointed that the product will not work. Maybe I have the same problem. In addition, whatever factory worker assembled the product, glued the foam ring underneath and onto the blue rubber component in a haphazard fashion and did not use precision. I like precision and quality, and want to eliminate the possibility of the factory worker's poor tolerance. If a replacement of the FluidMaster or another similar product does not work, I'm going back to a standard or reinforced wax ring with horn which is messy but probably will work. Thank you.
 
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Harold Balls

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Harrold Balls, Maybe you havent diagnosed problem leaks around ring occur when toilet is flushed .... not when its just sitting. could be a cracked bowl the crack can be underneath and not visable

Good idea. I looked very carefully for a crack early on this week but did not find one. I've posted a few photos of the horn and where it is mounted. Maybe some oddity in the construction process is causing the leak? The small fingernail-type of indentation/long scratch you can see in the ceramic? (I doubt it, but maybe?) The rough part(s) of the horn lip maybe aren't seating with the rubber and would with wax? I meticulously cleaned the bottom before the first install effort so as to look for problems, and have kept it similarly and immaculately clean for each subsequent install effort. It is so clean that you could eat lunch off it. In fact, I'm getting kind of hungry now and all of the plates in the kitchen are dirty . . . .
 

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Jeff H Young

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Harrold, I can't really tell but just throwing out the possibility it does occur (leaky bowl). I don't care for the rubber parts instead of a wax seal but many are used by others with success , Not me. but again don't want to steer you wrong on cause of leak
don't see how toilet would leak if not using it if not a defective bowl of course a leak when flushing could pool water underneath and keep coming out for a while
 

Harold Balls

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Harrold, I can't really tell but just throwing out the possibility it does occur (leaky bowl). I don't care for the rubber parts instead of a wax seal but many are used by others with success , Not me. but again don't want to steer you wrong on cause of leak
don't see how toilet would leak if not using it if not a defective bowl of course a leak when flushing could pool water underneath and keep coming out for a while

Understood. On my way to Home Depot in a little bit for a changeup of seal type. Wax is certainly more reliable, but is just such a mess. I wanted to have a clean install with no wax, but maybe it won't happen. I'll see if a replacement or another seal type works and if not, back to the tried and true -- and I'll grab another wax ring to have on hand to avoid yet another subsequent trip to Home Depot. Thank you for your comments.
 

Reach4

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Understood. On my way to Home Depot in a little bit for a changeup of seal type.
Things don't seem to match up with a failed seal IMO. I am not sure, of course.

I think I would buy a new toilet, but unfortunately you are invested in the existing toilet.
 

Harold Balls

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Things don't seem to match up with a failed seal IMO. I am not sure, of course.

I think I would buy a new toilet, but unfortunately you are invested in the existing toilet.

It's a learning project. Yes, a time investment already perhaps poorly spent. But, I need to learn these things. I should have learned them many years ago. And, I can't let something like this fail by simply buying a new toilet or reinstalling the perfectly good one that is actually newer than the one I swapped out, being only five years old (and even nicer and larger but for the Flushmate 503 in this ten-year old "orphan" Gerber), otherwise I will not have learned. Life is too full of easy roads. I've been on some very difficult journeys lately in life, so, I guess, why stop with the toilet? Home Depot, here I come!
 
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Reach4

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Here is an idea: suppose the next time you are under that toilet, you sprinkle something that would show the path of water. But don't put something that would feed bugs, such as flour or cornstarch. Instead I am thinking maybe a light dusting of Portland cement dust, or some other non-organic powder.

I guess some a crack could route water in a similar way, but maybe not.
 

Harold Balls

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Here is an idea: suppose the next time you are under that toilet, you sprinkle something that would show the path of water. But don't put something that would feed bugs, such as flour or cornstarch. Instead I am thinking maybe a light dusting of Portland cement dust, or some other non-organic powder.

I guess some a crack could route water in a similar way, but maybe not.

I love the idea!
 

Reach4

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Some lines drawn with a water-soluble marker pen might show water flow paths too. Those could even be on the porcelain.
 
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