Sharkbite vs compression on PB pipe

[DIY-Ken]

I recently replaced a leaking plastic fitting on Polybuteline pipe with a sharkbite fitting. This is the second plastic fitting to leak in this past year so I decided to go ahead and replace every fitting I could get to in the attic at least. It seems to be holding fine but should I have any concern about the sharkbite fittings pulling loose over time?

I recently had a plumber tell me I should have used compression fittings instead but I was told by the guy at HD that I should not use compression fittings on PB pipe. Help! After reading a bit on the internet I don't see any real negative comments on sharkbite other than the cost. Should I be worried about this now? Should I consider replacing these sharkbite fittings with compression fittings instead?

I ran into problems using a compression fitting toilet shutoff value on the PB pipe sticking out of the wall so am not too keen on using compression on this PB pipe either. At least not the simple kind involving just tightening the fitting down over the brass ring. I never could get this to work leak free on that PB pipe. I finally had to call a plumber in and he used a crimper tool to put the brass ring on.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Construct30]

I always used the quest compression fittings, but the sharkbite fittings work as far as everyone says. The best thing is to use a PB to PEX fitting and crimp it. Now there has been rumored to be troubles with one of the bigger PEX brand of fittings. I have used PEX fittings and not had problems. I think I would rather use the PB to PEX fittings and change anything that would cause major damage in the event of a leak. Some of the problem with PEX and a lot of plastic pipe is if it is strapped too tight. It must have room to expand and contract, a lot of room. If the pipe is stretched it could pull out of any type fitting. You should never use a brass compression fitting on plastic pipe unless it has the plastic ring. Some of the shark bite fittings say to only use them on copper, make sure you use the correct ones.

 

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[Herk]

I'm wondering what kind of PB fittings you're having problems with? The acetal fittings were horrible, as were the aluminum crimp rings. But I'd be interested in knowing if you're having problems with brass fittings or copper rings.

 

[DIY-Ken]

The fitting that leaked was a plastic elbow crimped on 1/2" PB pipe with what looks like a copper ring (but it could be brass...not sure). There was definitely no brass or copper insert inside the pipe.

The problem I had with using a compression fitting on the PB is that there is no insert (due to the pipe being only 1/2") so the compression ring on the outside of the pipe would never really squeeze just right. It seemed to leave a small gap or would distort the pipe. I can see where a crimper may work better instead of just relying on the tightening nut to do the "crimping" for me.

 

[Construct30]

What leaked, just a crimp or did the fitting actually crack? Most of the PB fittings I've changed actually cracked, I think mostly because there was no slack left in the pipe for expansion and contraction. I have had a couple that leaked at the crimp. That is what is starting to happen in the PEX line as people that don't know any better start using it. The is a lot of movement.

Can you tell if your pipes are able to move or are they strapped in tight? Just curious.

mark

 

[DIY-Ken]

Mine are definitely the gray acetal fittings with the copper crimp rings. I didn't look real close at the fitting once I cut it out to see if the fitting had a crack or not. I'll have to look and see if I kept it.

When looking for replacement fittings, I could not find any fittings that say they are for PB. Guess I should have gone to a plumbing supply house instead of HD. The sharkbite fittings are heavy brass and say they work with PEX and CPVC so I assumed they would work ok with PB.

After further research, it sounds like if you are going to use compression fittings on PB pipe, you really should use fittings that have an insert (preferable the new metal insert fittings) to make sure the crimp or compression ring does not distort the soft pipe. Doesn't sound like a crimped or compressed ring on just the outside of the pipe is a good idea on PB.

First, I hate to have to use an insert fitting on 1/2" pipe as this will further restrict the flow. Second, is it really worth the time and cost, assuming I can find good PB fittings and the proper crimper tool, to replace all the nice sharkbite fittings I just did? Since the sharkbite does not involve any crimping or compression, I would think this is best, if I can faithfully rely on these to hold. Three weeks and counting so far so good I even went so far as to add a little PVC glue around the connections. Not sure if that was a good or bad idea though. Leave it to us Do It Yourselfers to do funny things like that. Hmmm, if chlorine can break down PB pipe, I wonder what glue will do.

So the real questions is how confident should I feel about PB in sharkbite? I did replace some of the PB pipe with CPVC since I had to lengthen some areas after cutting out the old fittings. So in some cases I am joining PB to CPVC via the sharkbite fittings.

 

[Jadnashua]

The Sharkbite connectors are approved for connections hidden behind closed walls. I'm not sure about the PB material, but for those it is rated to connect with, it should work.

The gray end of the Sharbite if for PB

 

[DIY-Ken]

Sorry I did not answer all the questions. For the most part, the pipe is strapped and tied to the trusses so should not move. But this is not the case with every pipe there. As for contraction and expansion, if you mean due to freezing temperatures, this is not a real problem for me since I live in South Florida where we don't get freezing temps very often (maybe every 10 years).

 

[Construct30]

Plastic pipe, or for that matter, any pipe, will expand and contract, length wise any time there is a water temperature change inside of it or an outside temperature change. Plastic does a lot more so it takes special care when strapping it along with straps approved by the manufacturer to install it. I have heard about guys trying to make PEX pipe look nice and straight like copper and strapping it tight, this is wrong. Go to the website Zurn PEX has and read their installation instructions, PB should be similar.

The only fitting I know of that says it works on PB pipe is some of the PB to PEX adapters. Quest makes some grey compression type fittings that used to be OK with PB pipe, available at many trailer sales outlets and some hardware stores. Most manufactureres avoid listing anything about PB pipe after all the lawsuits associated with it.

The biggest fear I would have is if the PB does not have enough room to contract, it could pull at the sharkbite fittings until they also start to leak. If you added in some CPVC to extend the pipes then maybe you gave it enough room. I've never been a big fan of CPVC. I've fixed a lot of it, mostly from freezing so you shouldn't have to worry.

I would tear out all the PB and change it out for copper or PEX, but that wouldn't cost me like it would you. If you have good home owner's insurance don't worry. It isn't as bad if it is under you in a crawl space, but when it is above in the attic it can be a mess. It's getting harder to sell a house with PB pipe in it. A lot more home inspectors are saying no to it and most banks require the home inspections.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

I'm a little late on this, but you might want to look into this website:

http://www.polybutylenelawsuit.com/

Your problem is very common.

 

[DIY-Ken]

Thanks for the link but I have already checked and am unfortunately about 10 years too late to file a claim. The house was built in 1984 and the leak has to have occurred within the first 13 years (1997 for me) and the claim must be filed within 14 years (1998).

 

[Herk]

So far as I know, PB fittings except for transition couplings no longer exist. You have to switch to PEX and use the transition coupling. Places like Home Depot sell them with a copper-colored ring for the PB side and a black-colored ring for the PEX side. The PB rings area a bit thinner, the outside diameters the same.

The acetal fittings were horrible, as previously mentioned - the strain of the crimp ring would eventually crack them, either by snapping off the barbed part or splitting the barb. I'm really grateful that I only used the copper and brass fittings, with the exception of such things as valves. I've installed a lot of them and never had to replace one. I used Vanguard and I did replace a lot of Qest valves, but usually because they had failed internally, not because they had broken.

There were no brass crimp rings - only copper. The difference in the copper-colored and black rings is so that you can distinguish them from each other so you don't mix PEX and PB rings on the wrong kind of pipe.

 

[DIY-Ken]

Thanks to everyone for your help. It sounds like if I do decide to replace the sharbite with another fitting, I should only use the crimp on copper insert fittings made specifically for PB pipe. The Zurn website specifically warns about mixing and matching PEX and PB components:
"WARNING: It is the installer’s responsibility to avoid mixing PB and
Zurn PEX components. Zurn Industries, Inc. does not guarantee or
in any way warrant the installation of Zurn PEX systems due to the
wide variance in installation practices.
Mixing of PB and Zurn PEX components may cause plumbing system
failure and result in severe water damage."

I assume this warning means not to use PEX fittings on PB pipe and visa versa. As "Herk" pointed out, the transition fittings for PB to PEX are specifically different to avoid improper use. So this means if I can get no clear answer on whether the sharkbite on PB pipe is ok, I would have to invest in a PB crimper and find these special transition fittings. I assume I may also have to replace the CPVC I used with PEX as well, unless I find PB to CPVC transition fittings. I have seen crimpers that say they work with both PB and PEX.

Sounds like this could become a big and expensive job. Maybe I will just stick with the sharkbite fittings unless I hear of something really worrying about that.

 

[Herk]

The crimping tool is the same. The difference in the rings is to match the differences in the pipe and fittings, but the outside diameter of the crimped ring remains the same.

 

[DIY-Ken]

I found the original troubler maker elbow that was leaking that I had cut out. Don't see any cracks but the copper ring is kinked enough that my guess is the leak was just due to a bad crimp. Guess they didn't use a Go-No Go crimp guide. Wonder why it took 23 years before it decided to leak? Upon inspecting some of the other fittings I removed, I see some of them had some nasty crimps as well although not as bad as the one that leaked. Could have been just a matter of time before the next one blew. Sure wish I could get into my walls as well without the pain of re-dry walling.

BTW, I emailed Cash Acme, the makers of Sharkbite fittings, and was told that even though Sharkbite push fittings are not officially certified for PB pipe, they have heard of no problems from people using them on PB pipe.

 

[Herk]

The crack in acetal fittings doesn't always show up. You might stress it a little under a bright light and use magnifying lenses and you'll be able to see it.