Seeking well advise from Pros like you guys...

[Steven Tyminski]

Hi,
I'm Steve from southeast AZ, near Tombstone.
I have a situation where my overload breaker on my well pump control box clicks a few times then trips (opens).
I tested the run and start capacitors and found them good.
I tested resistance of my 2HP/25GPM Grundfos pump, installed in 1994 at 300', and found, using the formula for pump motor resistance of wire colors B+R = (Y & R) + (Y + B)
Test shows B&R = 9.6 ohms / (Y & R) + (Y + B) = 3.2 + 7.3 = 10.5. ohms
Difference of .9 ohms, test tolerance limits being unknown, this reading may be within spec.

I tested the current draw of the pump and found wire colors R=8 amps / Y=20 amps / B=22 amps, starting then running R=0.
When the overload breaker is making the clicking sound before it trips, current on the black wire fluctuates between 22 and 25 amps.

I tested resistance to ground on the 20K scale and found 10K ohms on each wire to ground with my DVM constantly fluctuating. never reaching zero or infinity.
My analog VOM doesn't work above the 10K range. I don't have a megger.

Local guy, who seems knowledgeable, says he thinks my pump run windings are beginning to fail. Wants to install a new similar pump for $1750 +labor. He says he finds the life expectancy of this pump is 8-12 years.

To me it seems like a bad underwater splice (based on resistance to ground test), a mechanical failure within the pump, or a combination both.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Reach4]

Does the pump pump water before the breaker trips?

I tested resistance to ground on the 20K scale and found 10K ohms on each wire to ground with my DVM constantly fluctuating. never reaching zero or infinity.
My analog VOM doesn't work above the 10K range. I don't have a megger.

What does your digital multimeter say the leakage resistance is? If the highest ohm scale that your analog meter can do is the 20K scale and you read 20K makes me think you should try another meter or two.

Try plugging your numbers into these formulas:

Rw= (Rab + Rbc -Rac) /2
Rrun=Rab -(2*Rw)
Rstart=Rbc-(2*Rw)​

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-resistances-with-unknowns.67706/#post-503161

I am not a pro. If I were, I would advise you to replace the pump now.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[VAWellDriller]

Is the pump moving water /making pressure before it trips? You mentioned checking the capacitors in box, but that isn't always definitive. A faulty control box can make a motor do all sorts of funny things. I always try a new control box first when a 3 wire pump is acting funny before I pull the pump. After trying control box, you will prove you definitely have a problem in the well and the pump needs to come out....check wire, splice and motor. If its been in since 94, then you've gotten your money out of it. For what its worth, a 2HP 25 GPM pump has no business being set 300' deep. If the water level really warranted setting it that deep, it wouldn't make any pressure at all......might be fine if you were just filling a cistern.

 

[Steven Tyminski]

Thanks for the reply...
The pump does move water and makes pressure before the breaker trip. The trip occurs around 45 psi. I replaced both caps in the box with known good units and had the same results. The only other in-box components are a terminal strip and the overload breakers. What else could be amiss in the box?
I like you comment "2 HP 25 GPM pump has no business being set 300' deep". I imagine this statement is driven by the inverse proportion of flow versus pressure?

My then well driller put this package together because, at the time, I had a whole yard irrigation system. I no longer irrigate and just do normal stuff with my water.
What GPM would you suggest for a 2HP system? The well is a 6" casing with a 300 foot well having water at around 240'.

From a Penn State engineering web site I came up with around 14 GPM for my single bath two person 14oo square foot home. The Penn State calculations didn't consider the water depth though.
Thanks again,
Steve

 

[VAWellDriller]

Thanks for the reply...
The pump does move water and makes pressure before the breaker trip. The trip occurs around 45 psi. I replaced both caps in the box with known good units and had the same results. The only other in-box components are a terminal strip and the overload breakers. What else could be amiss in the box?
I like you comment "2 HP 25 GPM pump has no business being set 300' deep". I imagine this statement is driven by the inverse proportion of flow versus pressure?

My then well driller put this package together because, at the time, I had a whole yard irrigation system. I no longer irrigate and just do normal stuff with my water.
What GPM would you suggest for a 2HP system? The well is a 6" casing with a 300 foot well having water at around 240'.

From a Penn State engineering web site I came up with around 14 GPM for my single bath two person 14oo square foot home. The Penn State calculations didn't consider the water depth though.
Thanks again,
Steve

Nothing else in box...just testing capacitors is not always definitive....so for me easier/quicker to swap and try a complete known working unit. Seems like you have been pretty thorough though.

My pump comment was because a 25gpm 2 hp is a very low head pump not capable of much flow OR pressure with a low water level.....my guess is you either don't have a 25gpm pump or your water level is higher than you think. A pump that can deliver 7-10 gpm is more than enough for most all domestic use situations.....especially for a 1 bath home. You would be just fine with a 1hp 10gpm or 1hp 7 gpm pump is you dont plan to do any more irrigation.

 

[Reach4]

A 1.5 HP 10 gpm pump would usually be good for a 3 bathroom house.

 

[Valveman]

VA is right as usual. That pump cannot even build to 60 PSI for shut off if the water level is any deeper than 190'. I also agree 7-10 GPM is more than you need for house use, since there is no irrigation. You did get a good long life out of that pump, but it is still the number of start/stop cycles that has caused it to fail. A smaller pump with a larger tank, or even better yet using a Cycle Stop Valve, will make the pump cycle fewer times and make it last longer.

 

[Steven Tyminski]

Great Information and THANK YOU all...!
I will definitely reduce my pump size and output. I am learning to read the performance curves to make that decision at this time.
I also really like the operational concept of the CSV in the system. My well components are rather tight as shown in these photos but, I think I could divert the outlet forward install the CSV, and place a tee before the tanks to feedback to the house and property outlets against the wall. The left out is the property outlet and goes through a backflow prevention valve, the right outlet feeds the house and used to feed a water softener before I grew tired of maintaining it.
As before, any comments from you professionals are welcomed and greatly appreciated.

 

[Valveman]

Didn't get the picture. Use the "upload a file" button and keep the file size small.

 

[Steven Tyminski]

I've (tried to) edited the post. Can't seem to remove the inserted links to images. Please ignore them. I'll reduce the file size in the future...

 

[Valveman]

I use "paint" and hit the"resize button".

 

[Steven Tyminski]

Okay, maybe understanding pump curve charts is a little beyond both my need and comprehension desire for my application. I guess my only real consideration is to choose between the 10s15-21 Grundfos which my local guy recommends and something a bit better, whatever that may be? perhaps the 2 HP version of this same pump or the same pump with more stages?

 

[Reach4]

I think that the 1.5 10 gpm is a better fit.

Let me give an example from the table. Suppose your water drops to 280 feet, about where the pump is. Suppose you use a 40/60 PSI pressure switch. That pump still delivers 10.5 gpm to your house. To your softener. To your iron filter. Your use would put your conditions in the midst of the gray-shaded area. The 2.0 is a bit overpowered, but not bad. A lot of people might choose that. In other words, I think your pump guy's recommendation is ideal for a 10 gpm pump, and a 7 gpm 1 HP pump would be great choice also. Unless you have an iron (or other backwashing filter) filter that needs a 10 gpm backwash, that 7 gpm pump could be a little better choice.

Also, if you ever re-do the pressure switch and tank area, it is best to have the pressure switch connect at the pressure tank. Yours is not very far, so as long as you don't cut off early, you are probably OK. Having your little tank is unusual. Maybe that is compensating for the big tanks being farther.

Your currents are excessive for a 2 HP pump.

 

[Steven Tyminski]

I think that the 1.5 10 gpm is a better fit.

Let me give an example from the table. Suppose your water drops to 280 feet, about where the pump is. Suppose you use a 40/60 PSI pressure switch. That pump still delivers 10.5 gpm to your house. To your softener. To your iron filter. Your use would put your conditions in the midst of the gray-shaded area. The 2.0 is a bit overpowered, but not bad. A lot of people might choose that.

Also, if you ever re-do the pressure switch and tank area, it is best to have the pressure switch connect at the pressure tank. Yours is not very far, so as long as you don't cut off early, you are probably OK. Having your little tank is unusual. Maybe that is compensating for the big tanks being farther.

Thank you Reach4. I will relocate the switch when installing my CSV.
The 2HP is only a little more in price and I prefer the "better safe than sorry" approach.

The little tank atop the well head was intended to serve as an accumulator (air over water with a blader between, same as a larger pressure tank I guess...) and was installed to curb the major water-hammer I experienced when I had metal piping to the motor. Changing to PVC made a big difference, but did not completely eliminate the water-hammer .

I do not have an iron filter nor softener. My water tests come back as very pure with a high calcium carbonate concentration.
What's your take on additional check valve in-line between the pump and the surface, and between ball vs flap check valve?

 

[Reach4]

Thank you Reach4. I will relocate the switch when installing my CSV.
The 2HP is only a little more in price and I prefer the "better safe than sorry" approach.

Wrong thinking. Not uncommon thinking however. Not terrible like a 5 HP pump, but this is not an area where "bigger is better".

Additional check valve right above the pump can be beneficial as a redundancy. You don't want one higher. There are differences of opinions.

Any check valve for a well should be spring loaded.

A softener is a nice addition if you have high calcium. You may choose to drink the non-softened water. Never irrigate with softened water. But toilets, showers, tubs, and the inputs to reverse osmosis filters should be softened water.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah the 1.5HP is better. 2HP builds more pressute than a CSV1A can handle from that depth.

 

[Steven Tyminski]

New well pump is installed. $2075 later. Real happy with the local installer, Foster Pump, great folks.
The end result was that the old pump had a short to ground. Note the arcing on the old control box.
Also the old pump casing is fairly detorated. The metal is called Stainless Steel, not to be confused with Stain Free...
The old pump wire was a standard well cable of three #10 wires, within a sheath.
Although the original pump had 4 wires Red, yellow, black, Green. The service feed cable had only three Red Yellow Black.
I kept the service wire as opposed to installing a new cable at $1.80/foot. I will create a well case to ground circuit.
The local pump guy, Wyatt recommended against the CSV for my application.
He also recommended installation of a Pump Saver circuit monitor, replumbing of the pressure tanks, so the tanks don't dead end, to reduce water hammer, and a quarterly pressure tank maintenance schedule for testing tank pressure.

 

[Reach4]

I am glad to hear it is working, and that the pump people diagnosed and performed well.

replumbing of the pressure tanks

That brass manifold that has the pressure switch screwed into it is called a tank tee. The long leg is usually screwed into a pressure tank. That way the path between the pressure switch and pressure tank is very short. Bigger pressure tanks usually have 1.25 pipe inputs and smaller ones have 1 inch.

The tank tee often has both FIP and MIP (bigger) threads on each end that sticks out, but I think the side to the pressure tank is MIP only-- I could be mistaken on that aspect. Some tank tees have a union in the path between the tee part and the longer part that goes to the pressure tank.

On the dead end aspect, that is not really bad usually. Where does the well water come in. I hope it is not one through one of the two valves at the wall. You should not have a shut-off valve between the pump and the pressure switch.

 

[Valveman]

That pump may look rusty but it isn't corroded. Just needs the rust brushed off and it will look good as new. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that pump end. I can usually replace the motor about three times before one of those Grundfos pumps goes bad. Can't tell if you went with the 1.5HP or 2HP? The 2HP would be way over kill. Of course he didn't recommend against a CSV, but he didn't say why he wouldn't use one "in your application". First he wouldn't have gotten to sell those 2 big expensive tanks. Second he either has no idea how a CSV works, or he does know how they work, and doesn't want your pump to last for the rest of your life.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat, but I see several things I would change. The pressure switch is too far from the pressure tanks. This is probably why he has a little expansion tank sitting on top of the well head. He has figured out a way to keep the pressure switch from bouncing by putting a third tank close to the switch. You would think he would have figured out moving the switch closer to the actual pressure tank would have kept the switch from bouncing. But this way he gets to sell you 3 tanks. The check valve between the well and pressure switch should be removed, which would still be a good place to install a CSV. But having a check valve there causes water hammer on pump start, bounces the pressure switch, and will put a ton of water hammer on that little expansion tank, so I doubt the bladder will last long.

Replacing the $500 motor only and adding a CSV and small tank this job would have only been $800-$1000.

He finds "life expectancy to be 8-12 years with this pump" because of the way it is installed. Anybody can install a pump. But it only takes a few little things done differently/correctly to make it last 30 years instead of 8. That is the main reason most pump guys do not like CSV's.

Also, those two 119 gallon tanks hold about 30 gallons each. With 60 gallons in the tanks you will be at low pressure for a long time before the pump comes on and finally gives you some good pressure.