Sears Well Pump

[domingum]

I just bought a small ranch in Chesapeake VA. I have two shallow wells on the ranch that provide all my water. One of the wells supplies my house. It has a large pressure tank and a Sears Model well pump. The pump says Pressure 20/40, Model 390 25150, Code E82B. There is a small metal box on the side of the pump motor that is connected to 110VAC and has an air line going to the actual pump (I'm assuming this is a control box or air injector?). The control box has two screw adjustments that are inside springs. I'm assuming these are the air or on/off adjustments. One screw is larger & longer than the other.

I'm writing because I have a problem with surging & fading water pressure in my house (when I flush the toilet, run the shower, run the sink, etc.). I watched the pump & pressure tank pressure valve while the water was running and noticed the pump would cycle on as the pressure fell to around 26 lbs, then off when the pressure read 56 lbs. Then the pressure would fall very quickly (as water flowed) and the pump would cycle on again. It's like that constantly, on-off-on-off-on-off, etc. (cycles about every 5-10 seconds). When I turn the water off the pressure does not fall and the pump does not cycle, so I don't think I have a leaky tank or bladder. What I would like to happen is for the pump to turn on when the pressure tank drops to a certain pressure, run the pressure back up to a sufficiently high pressure, and stay on at the fixed pressure while the water is running, then turn off once the water has been turned off and the tank has pressured to the shut-off pressure. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

I had a plumber out to check the pump & pressure tank and he said they were both fine, but that I needed to adjust the on/off controls using the screws. He said that vibration from the pump motor sometimes caused them to back out over time. He did a quick adjust and it seemed to make the situation a little better, but then a few days later it started again. He did not explain the correct process for adjusting/setting the control box and I do not have an owner's manual for the pump.

Does it sound like my pump/pressure tank are operating correctly and just need settings adjusted? If so, what is the correct process for setting the on/off screws on the pump? Why are there two adjusting screws (which does what) and which should I be turning? Which is the correct way to turn the screws, clockwise or counter-clockwise and what is the impact of turning in each direction?

Please help!

 

[Speedbump]

What you are describing is a pressure switch. It works off the water pressure on your pump. It is the device that turns the pump motor on and off electrically. So be careful when messing with it, you can get shocked.

If your tank isn't totally waterlogged, I missed my guess. I think I would also quit calling that particular Plumber as he hasn't a clue.

The only thing that will make a pump cycle on and off that quickly is a waterlogged tank or the lack of a tank.

Since you have a Sears pump, I have reason to believe you also have a Sears tank. If it is painted and has a valve stem on it, the chances of it being over a couple of years old and not being bad are slim to none.

I would replace at least the tank before you need a new motor as well.

bob...

 

[Sponsor]

 

[domingum]

Bob,

Thanks for the reply. I went out and looked at the pressure tank. It seems to be very old. I believe the tank is much older than the pump (just looks much older and is very large). It is very large (20" dia x 33" tall) and is unpainted galvanized.

The tank actually sits next to the pump/motor. On the top of the tank there is a large threaded plug (looks to be about 1 1/2 inch).

On the front side of the tank, about mid way up the side, there's a large fitting (like a block) that has a pressure guage mounted in it and a 1/4" copper line going back to the pump (guessing this is the air line for the on/of switch). Below that there is a large copper water pipe that comes in from the pump (guessing this is the in flow).

On the back side, at the bottom of the tank, there is a 3/4" copper pipe that goes into a tee...one side going to the house supply and the other to what looks to be a pressure release.

There is no valve stem (for adding or releasing pressure with a pump) on the pressure tank.

Mark

 

[Pumpman]

As Speedbump said, you have a waterlogged pressure tank. Turn the power to the pump off, bleed down the pressure and remove that line from the side of the tank. Then remove that block. You should get water out of the tank. Let it drain until the water stops coming out. Once that happens, air will enter the tank. Put it back together and the problem should be much better.
Don't mess with the adjustments on the pressure switch. As Speed also recommended, dump the plumber.
Ron

 

[Leejosepho]

The only thing that will make a pump cycle on and off that quickly is a waterlogged tank or the lack of a tank.

Yes, a waterlogged tank is your cycle problem, and it sounds to me like you have an older tank that does not have an air bladder. Rather, the tube you have mentioned somehow injects a little air each time the pump cycles, but those old systems are notorious for acting up.

You have two options at the moment:
1) Replace the tank with an air-bladder tank;
2) Get a large volume of air into your existing tank before you also have to replace the pump.

To attempt option two: After turning off the power to your pump and letting all the pressure out of the system, remove that "pressure release" you have mentioned (at the bottom of your tank) and let all the water gurgle out of your tank ... and that will take a while. After the tank has stopped draining, re-install that "pressure release" and give power to your pump once again. By doing that, your pump cycle will be decreased -- longer on-times with fewer starts -- as it works against the larger volume of air in your tank. You could get the water out of your tank faster (and later put more air back into it more easily) by installing a Shrader (tire) valve in the place of that large plug in the top of your tank, but removing that plug in the first place could be quite a task!

One of those adjusting screws on you pressure switch controls the spread between the switch's high-off and low-on settings, and the other moves that entire spread up or down the pressure scale.

 

[domingum]

How do I make sure the tank is one without a bladder?

What's the best way to release the pressure from the tank once I have unplugged the pump? Is it simply a matter of then opening the closest faucet on the house side of the tank (there's an outside spigot less than 5 feet away on the house side of the tank) and letting the water drain until there is no more pressure (remember, there is no schreader valve on this old tank)?

For this type of tank, is there a requirement to pre-pressurize the tank once I have drained out all the water (not sure how I'd do that without a schraeder valve)?

 

[Bob NH]

How do I make sure the tank is one without a bladder?

What's the best way to release the pressure from the tank once I have unplugged the pump? Is it simply a matter of then opening the closest faucet on the house side of the tank (there's an outside spigot less than 5 feet away on the house side of the tank) and letting the water drain until there is no more pressure (remember, there is no schreader valve on this old tank)?

For this type of tank, is there a requirement to pre-pressurize the tank once I have drained out all the water (not sure how I'd do that without a schraeder valve)?

The best way to use a non-bladder tank is to put some air in it as though it were a bladder tank.

First, shut off the pump and drain the tank completely. You may have to open that plug in the top to get all of the air out.

Then, I would get reducing bushings and fittings to let you put a Schrader valve in the top of the tank, along with a tee and a 1/4" valve off the tee.

After the tank is drained, completely, close all of the water valves and, using the new Schrader valve and the pressure gauge on the tank (add one if you don't have one), pressurize the tank with air to the pump START pressure that you want to operate the system at. You will want an air compressor. This is too much for a bicycle pump.

Then turn on the pump and let it fill with water until it shuts off with the pressure switch. At that point the tank should be about 30 to 35% full of water. Make a mark on the tank or remember where the level is. You can usually detect the level from condensation or by tapping on the side of the tank.

Now, slowly (you don't want to vent all the air that you put in) drain some water out of the system from a faucet near the tank, and shut it off when the pump starts. There will probably be some air in the line just before the pump starts. That is just excess air escaping and is not a problem. DONE.

Check the water level in the tank from time to time. If the level in the tank when the pump shuts off is more than 3" higher than the high level when you set up the tank, then add 10 psi or air via the Schrader valve.

You may have an automatic air system, but if it was working you wouldn't have a tank full of water causing a problem.

Another way to add air to the tank:
With the pump shut off, drain the tank to the level that should exist at shutoff (maybe 35% from the bottom, varies with pressure switch settings). Then add air until the pressure is equal to the pump switch shutoff pressure. Turn the pump power on. DONE.

 

[domingum]

OK. I thought I'd go out and try to determine exactly how full the tank is before I went any further.

The pump was off and the pressure guage on the tank read 55 lbs. I then took a small hammer and completed a tap test up the sides of the tank (on several sides) to see if I could tell based upon change in sound where the water level was. All around the tank, the sound changed noticeably at about 40 percent of the way up from the bottom of the tank. Based upon the recommendations in previous postings, that seems close to the recommended 35 percent.

I think the recommendations to add the schrader valve and a 1/4" valve off a tee installed through reducing bushings to the top of the tank is an excellent idea for ease of maintenance, and I will make those modifications.

Question: With results of tap test water level at about 40 percent level, do you still feel I have a waterlogged tank situation...or should I check other things?

 

[Bob NH]

If it is only 40% full at 55 psi, then it is not a waterlogged tank.

Based on the reported symptoms of quick cycling and 60% air in the tank, I would be looking for a valve closed/failed or line plugged somewhere between tank and pressure switch or between tank and pump.

If all else fails, try completely draining the tank and filling with air as I described in my previous post. You could be misreading the hammer test.

 

[Speedbump]

Man; I wish all posters could describe their tank as well as domingum just has. I can almost see the system in my mind. He also precisely described his shallow well jet pump with a copper line going to an air control which is supposed to keep the tank from getting waterlogged. It also has a gauge on top of it which means it's an AV 42 or bigger.

Apparentally the air control has either plugged up or the line feeding the vacuum to it has.

The only thing I doubt is the tap test. I have never been able to tell where the water level in a tank was by sound. A moisture line is one of two ways to tell where the water level is or the temperature difference when the tank has recently filled and the temperature outside was 20° or so different so it could be felt by the back of your hand.

I am awarding an Official Cyber Honorary Pump Repair Man Shoulder Patch to Domingum for his/her exemplary description.

This is a first time award, and I hope more can be awarded in the future.

bob...

 

[Leejosepho]

The only thing I doubt is the tap test. I have never been able to tell where the water level in a tank was by sound.

Same here, and neither even by tapping on my own belly!

 

[domingum]

OK. Thank-you for all the kind comments regarding my level of detail in the description. Guess that can be partly attributed to my being a computer engineer, but mostly because I felt I could not get the best help if I couldn't accurately describe the equipment to the experts...especially since they could not see it.

Points well taken on the tap test and actually wondered how accurate it was myself.

This next weekend I will:
1. turn off the pump and open the closest spigot to drain any pressure from the system,
2. disconnect the 1/4" copper air line between the tank and the pressure switch and inspect/clean it as well as the connection points on both the tank & pressure switch, then reinstall the 1/4" line,
3. remove the very large galvanized threaded plug on the top of the pressure tank (it has a square on top so I should be able to use a large crescent and either a breaker bar or a hammer to get it off),
4. open the drain at the bottom rear of the tank to completely drain the tank
5. replace the very large plug on top of the tank with reducing bushings & fittings and a new Schrader valve,
6. close the drain valve on the bottom rear of the tank,
7. using a compressor, add air until the tank pressure guage reaches the desired START pressure,
8. plug the pump back in and allow it to fill the pressure tank with water until it shuts off
9. open the nearest spigot to purge air from the lines and shut it off when the pump starts
Procedure complete.

Did I miss anything or get anything wrong?

My pump is a 1/2 horsepower, Pressure 20/40 pump. What should be my correct START & STOP settings on the pressure switch? Is it 20 & 40...because currently, according to the tank pressure guage it's actuating on at 26 and off at 56.

Is there a possibility that my pressure tank could have a build-up of sediment from the well, and could this cause the problem (remember looks like a very old tank)?

Since it is a galvanized tank, do I need to use galvanized reducing bushings & fittings in the top hole (to permit installation of the Schrader valve) or can I use brass (concerned about dissimmilar metals)?

I'm guessing I need to teflon tape all threaded fittings, correct?

Please confirm I have the above procedure correct and in the correct order. Also, let me know if there's anything else I need to know before starting.

Mark

 

[Bob NH]

Procedure looks good to me.

I would use galvanized fittings in a galvanized tank because you probably won't need them when you eventually replace the tank, and brass bushings will be expensive in large sizes if you can even get them. I would use brass for the 1/4" size and the valve.

You will use Teflon tape or pipe dope (or both) because an air leak will cause you to lose the precharge.

If it is a large plug, (like a 2") you may need some heat to get it started. Anything less than a 24" wrench is tough for a 2" fitting if it is really rusted in.

 

[domingum]

Thanks again Bob.

Any words on my previous START and STOP settings on the pressure switch based upon my tank size, pump size, and a desire for continuous high pressure when using water in my house?

Also, the pressure switch has two spring-loaded adjustment screws, a long one and a small short one. I understand from previous postings that one is for setting the START-STOP spread and the other is for moving the entire spread up or down. Any idea which is which?

Based upon my pump being a 1/2 hp 20/40 pump, and the current START & STOP pressure reading on my tank are 26 & 56 lbs, do I need to readjust the pressure switch, and if so, is there a proper procedure?

Sorry to be such a pest on this issue...just want to be sure I understand what I'm doing before I make the situation any worse.

Mark

 

[Leejosepho]

2. disconnect the 1/4" copper air line between the tank and the pressure switch and inspect/clean it as well as the connection points on both the tank & pressure switch, then reinstall the 1/4" line ...

Since that large plug at the top of your tank is likely going to give you much trouble during your removal effort -- you are going to need a very large strap wrench and somebody with many rocks in his or her pockets to hold that tank still -- you might consider placing the Shrader valve in a tee where the copper line already puts air into the tank. Once your pump is unplugged and your drain is open, you can first use a little air right there to help drain the tank.

 

[Speedbump]

The biggest mistake anyone can make with a galvanized tank is to remove the plug in the top. At the factory they use some very good pipe dope and a large pneumatic hammer to install the plugs. This is done to be sure they don't leak air. Since the air is under pressure 24/7 at the top of the tank and the air control only works when the pump runs, it's a good chance the tank can waterlog in just a few days.

Since it's already been removed, don't mess with it. Maybe it's healed from past waterloggings and the minerals have sealed it. If you remove it again, you may be adding problems. Use the plug in the side to let air in.

bob...

 

[domingum]

Bob,

Well, today was one of adventure. I fixed the pressure tank issue. You all were right, the tank was totally waterlogged.

First, I unplugged the pump and opened the nearest spigot to drain all the pressure in the system...I also turned off the valves leading to my water conditioning & filter system.

Then, I removed the pressure guage that is mounted about half way up the front of the tank. When I did, water began to drain out the hole where the pressure guage was installed.

Then, I opened the drain valve at the bottom rear of the tank and began catching & removing the draining water (in a 5 gal bucket). I could hear the air going into the tank through the guage hole as it drained. I drained between 15-20 gallons of water from the pressure tank (remember it is a very large galv tank). I knew the tank was very close to being empty because it now would rock slightly if I pushed on it.

Then, I removed the 1/4" air line running from the tank to the pressure switch and inspected it...there were no obstructions in the line or at either connection point. I reinstalled the 1/4" line.

Then, I installed a brass tee into the hole where the pressure guage was originally installed, installed the pressure guage in one end and a Schrader valve in the other (using teflon tape on all threads).

Then, using a compressor, I added 24 lbs of air pressure to the tank and verified there were no leaks (recall the pressure switch had been set to turn on at 26 lbs, so I added 2 lbs less).

Then, I plugged the pump back in and it started immediately. It ran until there was 54 lbs on the pressure guage, then shut off. I reopend all the valves to the water conditioning & filter system. Then, I went into the house and turned on the kitchen faucet and there was great water pressure.

I left the kitchen faucet running and went back out to the pump and watched the pressure fall very slowly on the pressure guage. It fell to 30 lbs, then the pump turned on. All the while I made several trips into the house to see if the pressure from the faucet fell as the tank pressure fell...and it did not, it remained good. The pump turned off again at 54 lbs. It took several minutes for the pressure to fall from 54 lbs to 30 lbs, and less then 2 minutes to repressurize to shutoff pressure (54 lbs). I think this problem is now fixed.

I still have one question...and I'm a bit worried because I've asked it a couple of times already but no one has answered...plus I want to make sure I don't damage the pump. My pump is a Sears 1/2 hp, and on the side it says "Pressure 20 / 40". Yet the pressure switch is currently turning the pump on at 30 lbs and off at 54 lbs. Is this OK for the pump or will it damage it? What is the correct setting for the pressure switch? If I do lower it to 20 / 40, will my water pressure in the house be less? Can you please advise me on this last issue?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Jadnashua]

Lowering the pressure lowers it everywhere in the system.

I'd be surprised if the higher pressure hurt the pump.

 

[Leejosepho]

I still have one question...
...the pressure switch is currently turning the pump on at 30 lbs and off at 54 lbs. Is this OK for the pump or will it damage it? What is the correct setting for the pressure switch? If I do lower it to 20 / 40, will my water pressure in the house be less?

Bob might have a comment about your upper setting, but yes, lowering it would lower your pressure overall, and I would guess you should be fine with it just as it is as long as your pump does not have to struggle getting there.

You had also asked this in the very beginning:

What I would like to happen is for the pump to turn on when the pressure tank drops to a certain pressure, run the pressure back up to a sufficiently high pressure, and stay on at the fixed pressure while the water is running, then turn off once the water has been turned off and the tank has pressured to the shut-off pressure. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

No, not usually. I have always heard that a typical well and pump should be able to maintain *at least* 40 psi with an open garden hose running, and I believe 20 psi is the recommended minimum spread used to reduce start-stop cycles.

 

[Bob NH]

What I would like to happen is for the pump to turn on when the pressure tank drops to a certain pressure, run the pressure back up to a sufficiently high pressure, and stay on at the fixed pressure while the water is running, then turn off once the water has been turned off and the tank has pressured to the shut-off pressure. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?
Please help!

That is approximately what a Cycle Stop Valve does.

But you said in your last post:

I left the kitchen faucet running and went back out to the pump and watched the pressure fall very slowly on the pressure guage. It fell to 30 lbs, then the pump turned on. All the while I made several trips into the house to see if the pressure from the faucet fell as the tank pressure fell...and it did not, it remained good. The pump turned off again at 54 lbs. It took several minutes for the pressure to fall from 54 lbs to 30 lbs, and less then 2 minutes to repressurize to shutoff pressure (54 lbs). I think this problem is now fixed.

Most modern faucets and showers are set to maintain nearly constant flow with varying pressure (government requirement), so you didn't see any effect when the pressure varied from 54 to 30 psi. If you are not having a problem with varying pressure, then you don't need a device to maintain constant pressure.

The disadvantge of a CSV is that much of the pumping time is at the highest pressure. Jet pumps are notorious for poor efficiency and CSVs increase the kiloWatt hours per 1000 gallons of water.

If you want a CSV, there are guys on this board who will tell you what you need and how to install it.