Replacing Baxi Luna 310 with Viessmann 35 Combi

$6900 Turnkey Installation

  • Too high

  • Good deal, buy it


Results are only viewable after voting.

Users who are viewing this thread

Michael Harner

New Member
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Kennebunk, ME
My baseboards produce 75,000 BTU using 1660 per foot. Three contractors all want to use Viessmann. What negotiating points can I ask for? I'm keeping my two thermostats. How many annual free maintenance calls are reasonable? Isn't $6900 quite high using existing plumbing and gas lines? What should a low cost be in Kennebunk, Maine?
 

Ron Beck

New Member
Messages
16
Reaction score
2
Points
3
Location
Harrisburg, PA
I think you have typed in a wrong figure, 1660 btu's per ft? Guys usually use 550 to 600 btu's per lineal ft. I do not agree with this sizing as it will usually oversize the boiler.
The proper way to size a boiler is by using a heat loss program or fuel usage.
 

Michael Harner

New Member
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Kennebunk, ME
I think you have typed in a wrong figure, 1660 btu's per ft? Guys usually use 550 to 600 btu's per lineal ft. I do not agree with this sizing as it will usually oversize the boiler.
The proper way to size a boiler is by using a heat loss program or fuel usage.
 

Michael Harner

New Member
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Kennebunk, ME
Good to know, I probably heard wrong (1600 instead of 600) . So that figure would be more like 2650 BTU. I'm told that the smallest Viessmann Combi is 150,000, but will modulate down. 150 / 265 would be a 5.6 turndown ratio. What is a reasonable installation cost, reusing existing piping?
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
The price isn't the problem- it doesn't sound outrageous, but the math (and likely the model) seems all wrong.

Most 8"-10" tall fin tube baseboard delivers about 200 BTU/hr per running foot condensing water temperatures averaging ~120F, and about 500-600 BTU/hr at 180F. If you don't have enough baseboard to run a condensing combi at condensing temperatures it can short-cycle the boiler into lower efficiency and an early grave. If it's chopped up into multiple zones it's at even higher risk of short cycling when operating at condensing temperatures.

Going by "...75,000 BTU using 1660 per foot..." it implies you have only 45 feet of baseboard total? If yes, ideally you'd have a boiler that can modulate down to 200 BTU/ft-hr x 45 ft= ~9000 BTU/hr.

It also means that if the 45' of baseboard can keep up with the heat load with 180F entering water temp you don't need more than about 500 BTU/ft-hr x 45 ft= 22,500 BTU/hr to heat the place.

The number of Baxi Lunas short-cycling themselves into low efficiency/high maintenance on insufficient radiation is large. If that's what's going on in your situation, don't repeat that mistake.

If you have a heating history on the place you can use wintertime fuel bills to measure the design heat load using this methodology.

To figure out what condensing equipment would be the best fit without short-cycling, run this napkin-math design check on the radiation and boiler specs.

With the both heat load and radiation capacity roughed out it's possible to estimate the water temp requirements under both design condition and average heating season temperatures, and figure out whether a particular model is going to be able to run at high efficiency without problems.

Can I assume the "Viessman 35 Combi" in question is the Vitodens 100-W B2KA-35? The minimum fire input to that combi boiler is 21,000 BTU/hr, so at 95% efficiency (which takes an average water temp of 120F or lower) it's output would be about 20,000 BTU/hr. At 200 BTU/hr per foot that takes about 100 feet of typical baseboard to balance perfectly. The Navien NCB-150e modulates down to about 11K or so out, and with some careful programming won't short-cycle badly on 45' of baseboard, but on the domestic hot water side could be a problem for a 2-bathroom house in Maine. The next step up is the NCB-180e, which modulates down to 13K out, which has better hot water delivery, but may require a bit more fine-tuning on the heating side setup to get high efficiency without short-cycling. HTP's UFTC-140 combi boiler is comparable to the NCB-180e in many respects, and might be a better choice if better supported locally.
 

Michael Harner

New Member
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Kennebunk, ME
Dana, I was hoping you would reply! Thanks for the great info and some actionable suggestions. It looks like I need to find a competent contractor that will install and maintain an NCB-150e, unless there is something with even lower modulation. Their website doesn't find anyone local to southern Maine. I'll tell you a little more detail please.
  • 2 Zones - Zone 1 is 15 feet, and upstairs Zone 2 is 25 feet =~ 45 feet.
  • 1.5 bath, so only 1 bath/shower. I'm thinking the smaller NCB-150e may be reasonable with low flow?
  • We are seasonal, so most of all winter it sits running at 45 degrees, unless we pop in for Holiday, etc.
I can tell you that Baxi Luna 310 hated that situation. Any technology that helps me keep the pipes from freezing in winter is a plus (electrical back-up maybe?).
If you can suggest a contractor, please do. I'm a little worried about not being able to find local service when needed. I want to install this as soon as possible.
 
Last edited:

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
Dana, I was hoping you would reply! Thanks for the great info and some actionable suggestions. It looks like I need to find a competent contractor that will install and maintain an NCB-150e, unless there is something with even lower modulation. Their website doesn't find anyone local to southern Maine. I'll tell you a little more detail please.
  • 2 Zones - Zone 1 is 15 feet, and upstairs Zone 2 is 25 feet =~ 45 feet.
  • 1.5 bath, so only 1 bath/shower. I'm thinking the smaller NCB-150e may be reasonable with low flow?
  • We are seasonal, so most of all winter it sits running at 45 degrees, unless we pop in for Holiday, etc.
I can tell you that Baxi Luna 310 hated that situation. Any technology that helps me keep the pipes from freezing in winter is a plus (electrical back-up maybe?).
If you can suggest a contractor, please do. I'm a little worried about not being able to find local service when needed. I want to install this as soon as possible.

The min-fire output of the NCB-150e in condensing mode is about 11,500 BTU/hr which takes about (/200BTU/ft-hr=) ~55-60' of baseboard to balance at 120F average water temp (AWT), which is where it needs to be to achieve 95% efficiency. If all (15'+25'=) 40' of baseboard was operated as one zone it would be possible to suppress short cycling at condensing temperatures, but the biggest zone can't even emit as much as half the min-fire output.

Taking the shortest zone, to balance perfectly the 15' of baseboard needs to emit 11,500/15'= 767 BTU/hr per foot, which you can get barely get out of the fin tube baseboard at a room temp of 45F- 50F when setting the NCB to it's maximum output temperature of 180F. At that temp there is zero condensing going on, but it won't short cycle. Expect efficiency in the 85-87% range.

With only 40' of baseboard the total heat load has to be less than (40' x 600BTU/ft-hr=) 24,000 BTU/hr, assuming it's possible to heat the place fully even in winter with the existing radiation. Odds are that in reality the load is less than 15,000 BTU/hr 99% of the time or more, even at 70F indoors, and much lower when it's 45-50F indoors. That puts within range of a pretty-good one ton ducted, or ductless mini-split heat pump, which would also provide very high efficiency ultra-quiet cooling in the summer season, and INSANELY high heating efficiency during the shoulder seasons. Both Fujitsu and Mitsubishi have a reasonable range of heat pumps in this range. The state of Maine is currently promoting heat pumps homes currently heated with oil or propane with rebates through Efficiency Maine, for models that meet sufficient efficiency numbers, many of which appear on their short list. In competitive bidding a 1 ton Fujitsu -12RLS3H or Mitsubishi -FH12NAH would come in around $4K, all-in, before rebates. A ducted version would come in starting at about $7K, but could be $8K or more depending on how tough it is to route the ducts.

Do NOT allow any contractor to install the ducts in an attic, above the insulation, at any price! Under the floor in a crawlspace or basement is fine, but ducts and air handler all need to be inside of conditioned space, even if it has to be in soffits under the ceiling level, like this 1.5 ton Fujitsu install out in CA:

2ffa6e108a7ded9f51130ff14126239b275b1244b7d53138beb63b4182d68f13.jpg


7843213f27734395e6ede8ea696552a8eafd3a2dd7f62c2b61241bb23189a293.jpg


Note: This Fujitsu is mounted vertically, with a big filter in the common return below it, and a short supply plenum above with 4 duct runs, all taking up less than 10 square feet of floor area. Most vendors require the mini-duct cassette to be mounted horizontally, which can make it problematic to find suitable places to install it in a low-ceiling cape house. The 10 square foot "utility closet" approach with the Fujitsus works out well in many places.

If it's an open floor plan, heating the main space with ductless wall or floor unit and leaving the doors open to other rooms for freeze control works.

While most mini-splits have a minimum setpoint temperature of 60F, Fujitsu has a "Minimum Heat" mode set to 50F (non-adjustable), and Mistubishi has a "SMART SET" programming mode that allows it to be set to 50F that isn't attainable in it's normal heat mode. The efficiency of these things are quite good even when it's 0F out, if the indoor temp is 50F. It's almost always less than half the cost of heating with a propane boiler, often cheaper than heating with a gas boiler, depending on local utility rates even at an indoor temp of 70F. It's even more efficient at an indoor temp of 50F, since the indoor/outdoor temperature difference is less.

It's not going to heat your water though.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks