Quarter 0.25 mile water line from meter to house

[niko7099]

Hello
we have about 1300 feet from water meter to the house. This is in Texas ... I was looking at PEX online and it look like the price difference between 11/2 (1.5) inch and 2 inch is about 5 times.. also for 2 inch i am only seeing 100 ft rolls, where as for 1.5 inch there is 300 to 500 ft rolls..
The meter hand off is 5/8 - can i get by 1.5 inches for such a long distance ?? i dont need it for outside irrigation. It will be just for a house with about 10 fixtures, and a RV 2-3 fixtures... appreciate any suggestions on the right way to go it.. Also is it worth going with 2 inch here for the additional cost or use a booster close to the house ? Also, what kind of fittings are best for joining the rolls ?

 

[Valveman]

10 GPM should be plenty for a house like that. At 10 GPM there is only 0.3 PSI loss per 100' in 1.5" pipe. With 1300' that is only a loss of like 4 PSI. 2" pipe won't make much difference. But I would use 160# poly not Pex. Depending on how much pressure you have at the meter will determine if you need a boost pump or not. If needed, you should be able to put a shallow well jet pump for a booster at the house and get as much strong constant pressure as you want.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Hello
we have about 1300 feet from water meter to the house. This is in Texas ... I was looking at PEX online and it look like the price difference between 11/2 (1.5) inch and 2 inch is about 5 times.. also for 2 inch i am only seeing 100 ft rolls, where as for 1.5 inch there is 300 to 500 ft rolls..
The meter hand off is 5/8 - can i get by 1.5 inches for such a long distance ?? i dont need it for outside irrigation. It will be just for a house with about 10 fixtures, and a RV 2-3 fixtures... appreciate any suggestions on the right way to go it.. Also is it worth going with 2 inch here for the additional cost or use a booster close to the house ? Also, what kind of fittings are best for joining the rolls ?

PEX is expensive for long distance. It is also smaller than SIDR polyethene pipe for long distance. PEX ID is 1/8 less that nominal pipe size. SIDR is bigger than nominal pipe size. http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/General/Pipeline-Pressure-Loss.php is a simple pressure drop calculator.

While Menards does not cover Texas, https://www.menards.com/main/search.html?search=sidr is a hand way to see the kind of stuff available.

Also, there are other good types of polyethelene pipe. SIDR is a size that can be connected with barbed fitting and worm gear clamps. Check locally. There may be people who weld plastic pipe.

Consider thermal effects. Do not pull he pipe tight, but instead snake the pipe.

 

[niko7099]

10 GPM should be plenty for a house like that. At 10 GPM there is only 0.3 PSI loss per 100' in 1.5" pipe. With 1300' that is only a loss of like 4 PSI. 2" pipe won't make much difference. But I would use 160# poly not Pex. Depending on how much pressure you have at the meter will determine if you need a boost pump or not. If needed, you should be able to put a shallow well jet pump for a booster at the house and get as much strong constant pressure as you want.

View attachment 95421

Thank you so much for your response.. everything i read says that PEX is better and more durable than poly,and poly has issues... do you think Poly will last 20 years without issues and i have trees around the driveway where i will be trenching ? do you have a specific brand you suggest and is it it ok to go with 1.5 inch ?

 

[niko7099]

PEX is expensive for long distance. It is also smaller than SIDR polyethene pipe for long distance. PEX ID is 1/8 less that nominal pipe size. SIDR is bigger than nominal pipe size. http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/General/Pipeline-Pressure-Loss.php is a simple pressure drop calculator.

While Menards does not cover Texas, https://www.menards.com/main/search.html?search=sidr is a hand way to see the kind of stuff available.

Also, there are other good types of polyethelene pipe. SIDR is a size that can be connected with barbed fitting and worm gear clamps. Check locally. There may be people who weld plastic pipe.

Consider thermal effects. Do not pull he pipe tight, but instead snake the pipe.

Thank you so much for your response.. everything i read says that PEX is better and more durable than poly,and poly has issues... do you think Poly/SIDR will last 20 years without issues and i have trees around the driveway where i will be trenching ? would 1.5 inches be ok ?

 

[Valveman]

Had problems with pex in the past, so just don't trust it. Probably made some improvements over the years but still go with poly because I trust it. Have a system with 7200' of 1.5" poly (SDR11 I think) running around big tress and through rocky terrain. Only problems I have had in 20 years is where the pipe is straight or from roots getting into the threaded or compression fittings. Went back with butt fusion welds and gave some slack for thermal expansion. Over the 7200' it gets like 11' longer or shorter depending summer or winter ground temperature. If you don't snake it along the straight parts will pull loose at the connections.

 

[Jeff H Young]

forget pex , use polyethelyne, as mentioned by others

 

[wwhitney]

Only problems I have had in 20 years is where the pipe is straight . .. Went back with butt fusion welds and gave some slack for thermal expansion. Over the 7200' it gets like 11' longer or shorter depending summer or winter ground temperature. If you don't snake it along the straight parts will pull loose at the connections.

If you don't mind, a couple questions on this: how deep is the pipe, and did you compact the backfill in the trench around it?

My interest is that for this problem of differential thermal expansion of plastic pipe, I'm curious where typical installations fall between the two extreme cases. At the one extreme, a pipe installed in extremely loose material that doesn't constrain the pipe movement at all, so all the stress from thermal contraction accumulates at the joints. Versus a pipe installed in say concrete without any wrapping, so that the concrete grips the pipe tightly along its entire length, and thermal contraction stresses are distributed along the pipe's entire length, with no concentration of stress at the joints.

Obviously your experience is closer to the first extreme.

Thanks,
Wayne

 

[Valveman]

Didn't bed or compact anything. I did put a concrete thrust block on both ends to keep it from pulling on the connections. I put a big curve in the ditch and pipe before each thrust blocks so it doesn't pull straight on the connections either.

Oh, and it is 24" deep.

 

[niko7099]

Didn't bed or compact anything. I did put a concrete thrust block on both ends to keep it from pulling on the connections. I put a big curve in the ditch and pipe before each thrust blocks so it doesn't pull straight on the connections either.

do you suggest for me to use a thrust block ? also how deep do you suggest . is 3 feet deep for the trench good ? is there a specific poly pipe you can suggest for this (a link would be great) ? and do you suggest have a junction box every 300 feet for being to isolate issue or future breakouts ? also do you suggest using butt fusion welds or can we get away with compression fittings ? how bad is the prolbem of roots getting into them ?

 

[Valveman]

Lubbock, Abilene line is only 18" frost line. I do 24" for the extra margin. If you are north of Lubbock deeper would be needed. But the deeper you go the harder it is to repair. And by repairs I mean I have replaced almost every compression coupling I installed. They are the kind with the grippers and don't come loose, but roots grow around the o-ring and makes them fail. Butt fusion is the way to go. I found a machine I could afford and do it myself. Anything with an o-ring or thread seams to allow the roots to grow paste the seal. I butt fuse everything buried and have threaded fittings in valve boxes at end points. I got 500' rolls from a company in Seminole. Very few connections that way. I went 3000' with no junction boxes. Just thrust blocked the ends before they connected to house plumbing so it wouldn't pull on the house pipes. Compression couplings only lasted a couple of years before they started giving problems, but have had many years with butt fused and all is well so far.

I also use this line for a Geo heat pump system. That makes the water temp change from 40F to as much as 110F depending on AC or heating being used. That wide range of temp causes much more expansion and contraction than a normal water line. If it can hold up to the stuff I put it through it is pretty good stuff. Lol!

 

[niko7099]

Lubbock, Abilene line is only 18" frost line. I do 24" for the extra margin. If you are north of Lubbock deeper would be needed. But the deeper you go the harder it is to repair. And by repairs I mean I have replaced almost every compression coupling I installed. They are the kind with the grippers and don't come loose, but roots grow around the o-ring and makes them fail. Butt fusion is the way to go. I found a machine I could afford and do it myself. Anything with an o-ring or thread seams to allow the roots to grow paste the seal. I butt fuse everything buried and have threaded fittings in valve boxes at end points. I got 500' rolls from a company in Seminole. Very few connections that way. I went 3000' with no junction boxes. Just thrust blocked the ends before they connected to house plumbing so it wouldn't pull on the house pipes. Compression couplings only lasted a couple of years before they started giving problems, but have had many years with butt fused and all is well so far.

I also use this line for a Geo heat pump system. That makes the water temp change from 40F to as much as 110F depending on AC or heating being used. That wide range of temp causes much more expansion and contraction than a normal water line. If it can hold up to the stuff I put it through it is pretty good stuff. Lol!

Thanks again for your help.. i am outside of Dallas, Texas. I dont think butt welding is easy for a beginner like me ? what is the next best option for interconnections ? I was thinking of getting 3x 500 ft rolls and have junction boxes every 500 feet. since i was going 24 inch , i was thinking of digging sides ways and putting some cinder blocks, so i can access it in the future if there are problem with couplers or if we need to branch out, or a shut off valve there to isolate leaks ? thoughts ? Below are pictures of the water meter connection.. since it almost level to the ground. what is the best way to get from here to the 24 inch deep. I was thinking of having a valve box about 3 meters away, so i i can have a hose bib close to the meter ? so is it ok to bring it straight 3 meters straight into a valve box, and then have a hose bib there, and then go with a 90 further down to 24 inches, and then run the 500 ft line ? or start slowly sloping down to 24 inches from the water meter. Any suggestion on the right connectors to use ? i am sure others have done it.

 

[niko7099]

@Valveman & other experts.. Thanks in advance for chiming in .. here is what i planning to do. Lets hope the diagram i put together is clear..
Anyway i can explain what i am doing in writing as well
1) water meter 3/4 PVC to valve box with 3/4 ball valve for shutoff
2) 3/4 T to provide a spigot next to water meter.
3) convert 3/4" to 1 1/2 inch
4) connect 1 1/2 pvc to compression coupling to connect to SDR 11 200 PSI polyethlene 500 ft pipe 1 1/2 "
5) After five hundred ft, connect to sharkbite coupler with valve to shutdown to see if there are leaks in previous run upstream
6) repeat again same for next 500 ft
7) last 500 ft end use compression coupling to connect poly end to PVC 1 1/2 "
8) connect PVC 1 1/2 " to pvc 3/4 " and then to house

questions i have:
1) is there a better way to have more durable connections ? i dont want to have to go in frequently and fix coupling ?
2) is the compression coupling that i am showing ok ? I was going to put the compression coupling inside of a cinder block so it can be easily accessed if needed..
3) any shortcoming in this - appreciate constructive feedback... i am on a low budget so i am trying to do it myself.

 

[Valveman]

I would use the gripper type compression coupling with teeth that won't let the pipe slip out past the o-ring. Running the compression couplings through a valve box is a good idea, as keeping them from being covered with dirt will not let roots grow under the o-rings. I would not use sharke bites or ball valves every 500' as they are just more opportunities for a failure. Testing every 500' length for a leak is not necessary. If it leaks it will be at a coupling in a valve box you can see. I would also just use the plastic valve boxes with extensions as needed.

 

[Reach4]

Note that piping should not be run straight for long distances. This is to accommodate thermal expansion and contracton. There used to be a document on the web that got into the thermal considerations. That is no longer where it was. https://www.charlottepipe.com/uploads/documents/technical/CPF-18.pdf is something, but not extensive.

 

[niko7099]

I would use the gripper type compression coupling with teeth that won't let the pipe slip out past the o-ring. Running the compression couplings through a valve box is a good idea, as keeping them from being covered with dirt will not let roots grow under the o-rings. I would not use sharke bites or ball valves every 500' as they are just more opportunities for a failure. Testing every 500' length for a leak is not necessary. If it leaks it will be at a coupling in a valve box you can see. I would also just use the plastic valve boxes with extensions as needed.

Thanks a lot ... the compression coupling that I found dont seem to have teeth. finding stuff has been challenging.. do you know where i can buy them online ? Also what is the best way to tee off at every 500 ft if i want to have a spigot there ?

 

[Jeff H Young]

I would use the gripper type compression coupling with teeth that won't let the pipe slip out past the o-ring. Running the compression couplings through a valve box is a good idea, as keeping them from being covered with dirt will not let roots grow under the o-rings. I would not use sharke bites or ball valves every 500' as they are just more opportunities for a failure. Testing every 500' length for a leak is not necessary. If it leaks it will be at a coupling in a valve box you can see. I would also just use the plastic valve boxes with extensions as needed.

ford "grip joint " ," Pack joint" or" quick joint" which type you like or another brand mueler? just wondering respect your opinion realize you may not tried them all but probebly have one youve been happy with . Id say its a good idea to be picky on long runs and deep lines etc.

 

[Valveman]

The first ones I used looked like these. https://powerflexfence.com/products...0-hrSfC79k0qAFU8VRtsVFTiiR-S-sU4aApSFEALw_wcB

But they quit making that brand and I used some that looked like these. https://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/2...b6k5I_ic-N839BgSlH73-qqDCZ2cxx_0aAlEaEALw_wcB

Neither one of those ever pulled apart, but the roots grew under the o-rings. I think they would be fine if you kept them in a valve box and didn't let them get covered with dirt.

I also had a few tees with hydrants along the way, and just used a PVC tee, ball valve, and short nipples, with a compression coupling on both ends to connect back to poly. Roots under the o-rings in the compression couplings has been my problem. I am going back with HDPE tees and fittings, even the ball valve, and am butt fusion welding instead of compression couplings. Just replacing them as they start leaking from the root problem. Only have a couple more to dig up. Where I still have threads or a compression coupling underground, I wrap in plastic and salt the dirt around the pipe to keep roots from growing in there.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I been using what looks very similar to the philmac coupler you outlined on underground gas without issue but these are newly installed time will tell ....

 

[niko7099]

I been using what looks very similar to the philmac coupler you outlined on underground gas without issue but these are newly installed time will tell ....

The first ones I used looked like these. https://powerflexfence.com/products...0-hrSfC79k0qAFU8VRtsVFTiiR-S-sU4aApSFEALw_wcB

But they quit making that brand and I used some that looked like these. https://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/2...b6k5I_ic-N839BgSlH73-qqDCZ2cxx_0aAlEaEALw_wcB

Neither one of those ever pulled apart, but the roots grew under the o-rings. I think they would be fine if you kept them in a valve box and didn't let them get covered with dirt.

I also had a few tees with hydrants along the way, and just used a PVC tee, ball valve, and short nipples, with a compression coupling on both ends to connect back to poly. Roots under the o-rings in the compression couplings has been my problem. I am going back with HDPE tees and fittings, even the ball valve, and am butt fusion welding instead of compression couplings. Just replacing them as they start leaking from the root problem. Only have a couple more to dig up. Where I still have threads or a compression coupling underground, I wrap in plastic and salt the dirt around the pipe to keep roots from growing in there.

Thanks again.. i just called the company that sold the 500 feet 1.5 inch rolls , and they quoted me

Hymax 2 862-54-0041-16 ND 1.5" EPDM Long Body Coupling 1.61-2.13 O.D.

Hymax 2 862-54-0041-16 ND 1.5" EPDM Long Body Coupling 1.61-2.13 O.D.

www.rcworst.com

its pretty expensive ? is it worth it ? this is the pipe i bought