Pump and / or well question?

[DIY71]

Hi all, I have read & read trying to figure out an issue that I'm having with our well for about 2 months now, so I figured I would post some of this, in hopes someone may have an idea.
This is probably going to be a little long, so I can provide as much info as I can, so I apologize up front! And I have spoke to two different well people, and they both gave me the same advice, of which I did attempt, but have not contacted them back yet to give them the results.
This well is about 20 years old, and I have lived at this house for 10 years - never had a lick of problems from it, except I did replace the pressure tank & switch about 7 years ago, due to the pressure tank giving up the ghost.
About two months ago, one of the flapper valves in one of our toilets got stuck open, and we didn't realize it till we came home from work that evening, and had no water - no faucets or anything had any water when we turned them on.
The first thing I did was go downstairs and check the breaker on the well pump - looked good, then I checked the pressure tank - sitting at 62 PSI, so all looked good. Glance up at the whole house filter, and it was completely brown & filled with mud. Based on the information and advice from the well guys, the running commode more than likely ran the well too low. They said change the filter & that I would have to run it good, to get the muddy water out; by running it approximately 5 gallons a minute for a good while, and do it here and there for several days, and hopefully it would it end up pumping most of the muddy water out.

Well, it seems the more I tried to do this, the muddier it got, so I stopped that, and ended up going to the local records place to get info on my well (didn't have info on it before hand).

The paper states the well is rated at 4 GPM, the well is 455' deep, hit mud/water at around 230 to 235', and solid limestone from 235' to 455', it says there is solid steel casing from 0 to 200' (which does sit about the ground about a foot or two, and looks to be 6"), and 4" plastic well liner from 5' to 455'; static water level is 100'.
After reviewing this info, I thought maybe I had ran the well low again, so over the labor holiday weekend, I decided just to let things set, and maybe recuperate and settle down.
After sitting several days, the water slowly starting getting more clear. We didn't go full fledged back on water usage, we eased back into so to speak; not that we used a tremendous amount to start with. We haven't washed clothes, or dishwasher, etc.. mainly just two to three showers a day; after it started clearing up, we may have run the dishwasher once a week at the most.
Well, the water started getting murky again - and it has done this almost the past two months now; it will clear up for maybe up to a week, then go murky again for a couple of days- when I say murky, you can see the mud in the filter, and the water is cloudy - but nothing like it was when this first happened.
If I put the muddy water into a bottle, just to see how fast it settles; usually w/ in a day or so, the water will be clear, and you can see the mud settled on the bottom.
I have cut the well off, shut off the water to the house, and it has held the same pressure the entire day while I'm at work, so I guess that part is ok.
I had a weird issue with the pressure tank/pump one evening, along with the breaker (20 amp two pole). I noticed that there was a much longer period in between the pump cutting on, and bringing the pressure tank back up to 60 (switch is set at 40/60); PSI on tank is set at about 38 when drained & checked - it is the cheaper flotec "rated" 82 gallon (only actual around 35 i think).
Now, when it did this, I heard something like crumpling paper over at the breaker box; turns out, it was the well pump breaker making like a buzzing noise; so I cut it off, and replaced it the next day just to be safe - after removing it and shaking it for giggles, it sounded like a can of marbles being shaken, so I'm guessing it was bad, and wrote off what I saw at the pressure tank, to something weird with the breaker, and hey, maybe it was "weird" cycling the pump and stirring the well up?
Well, water ended up getting murky again, so I spose not; until I heard the pressure switch doing the odd thing again, of taking too long to bring it back up to 60 (this was like from flushing or something - as I have watched the gauge to make sure pressure didn't change when no water was being used).
This time I did get to watch this event somewhat closer; it was like the pressure gauge kind of stalled at one point, and just barely kind of fluctuated up and down a few PSI, then it finally started building better pressure up to it's cut off point - so....
after it did this, I decided to write down on & off times while someone was in the shower - it basically took around almost a minute and a half to drain down to around 40 to cut back on, and an average of 45 seconds to pump back up - this was while the shower was running for about 11 minutes, and the times were close to consistent - but it didn't do the odd thing this particular time - but I really don't know how many times this "stall" event may or may not take place, as I'm not always there, or downstairs when the water is used.

So, long story short; is it possible, that the pump is on it's last leg, and is goofing up somehow (guessing it's the original pump @ 20 years), and causing the back & forth murky issue? I was thinking about going ahead and possibly replacing the pump & all, just to see.
I don't mind getting a professional involved locally, and had eventually planned on it - but I would like to get some advice on what someone thinks it may or may not be.

Thanks in advance for any ideas and/or information, and once again, sorry for the long post!

 

[MI Well Drilling]

It is very possible that the pump has a crack in it or there is a leak below the top check valve. Therfore it would hold pressure while you were at work but when the pump runs the leak or crack is stirring the well up. It would also cause the pressure gauge to stall if you will because the leak is getting bigger. Just a estimated guess but you should definitely get some references and contact a local well company. Good luck and good job on the DIY trouble shooting thus far

 

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[MI Well Drilling]

I forgot to mention. Get rid of the Flotec tank before it causes more trouble. Most of them are junk from the box.

 

[DIY71]

Thanks for the info. I had planned on replacing the tank if/when I did the pump, it had replaced a xtrol or something like that. Is there anything else that could cause the water issue, other than the pump?

 

[Valveman]

You should hope there is a crack in the pipe or pump below the check valve as MI is guessing. If you don't find something like that spraying water sideways and stirring up the well, then you may have problems with the well itself.

 

[DIY71]

Ok, I may try to at least pull the pump this coming up weekend and take a good look at everything - thankfully I have a few friends that have pulled several pumps in the past, and are willing to help a fella out
The local pump sales & service's may or may not be open Saturday; if they are, I assume that they may close before I finish getting it pulled. I would like to get a good pump if I do end up replacing it, so I'd rather stay away from the big box stores if possible. Any ideas on what size pump I may need, in case I decide to get one before hand?

 

[Reach4]

When you pull the pump, there will be a waterline on the drop pipe where water and air have met for years. Measure that to confirm the 100 ft static water level.

Also record the depth that the pump is at.

4" plastic well liner from 5' to 455'

With an unbroken PVC liner, it would not seem likely that a split in the drop pipe farther up would be making mud.

Anyway, with a static water level of 100 ft, a 3/4 HP 7 GPM pump would be one reasonable choice I think. I am not a pro.

You might want to consider mounting the pump higher if it is now set 2o ft or so from the bottom of the well.

The Franklin J-class is one of the pumps that is 3.75 inch diameter instead of the standard 3.9 inch diameter. That difference may not matter for your application.

 

[DIY71]

Thanks for the information, and I had planned on measuring everything I could, as I couldn't find on any of the paperwork of where the pump was set, and I also wanted to measure everything, including to the bottom, to see what all may have changed.
Are pumps usually set close to the bottom, say for in this instance of being 455'?
One of my friends had mentioned he had heard of people moving pumps up somewhat, but neither of us were sure of how many feet up we would attempt to move it to - guess it may depend on what may be found when pulling the pump, and measuring things?

 

[Reach4]

For 150 or 200 ft well, 20 ft off of the bottom is maybe a good starting point from what I have read. For a 455 well with a 100 ft static level, I don't know.

 

[Craigpump]

Most domestic pumps are set 20'-30' off the bottom regardless of the depth.

The slim line Franklin pump offers no advantage over other pumps in the 4" class, because they all use a 4" diameter motor. In fact, when some unknowing homeowner drops pebbles down a lined well, the slimline pump has a better chance of becoming stuck because the pebbles can wedge in tighter.

 

[Reach4]

"4" inch motor from Franklin AIM manual page 42 2015 edition.

 

[MI Well Drilling]

I've got my rubber boots on again. Make it easier on yourself and put it back where it currently is. Shot in the dark but let's hope it's a check valve issue. Have you noticed any air in the lines?

 

[DIY71]

No, I haven't had any air in the lines that I am aware of; the only times I've noticed any air, is when I have cut the water off, drained some of the lines, so I can change the muddy house filter...
Just out of curiosity - if nothing really stands out after we pull the pump, or it isn't the pump, check valve, cracked line, etc... what else might/could it be
?
Also, should I wait until its pulled, to see what pump I need to get, as I'm a little unsure about getting a pump before hand, as I'm not 100% sure on what pump to get... can you tell that that I'm somewhat of a "newbie" to the well world?

Thanks...

 

[Valveman]

If you are having this done by a pump installer, he is going to want to sell you the pump. Most won't even set pumps if you purchase somewhere else. The problem is that everything is 400-500' below ground and you never really know what you are up against until you get it out and have a look.

 

[DIY71]

Thought I would update for everything over the weekend...
We ended up pulling the pump this past Saturday morning; the model on the pump we pulled was 7LS10422; bought a replacement pump at a local supply house - they said the comparable pump was a Franklin 7JR1S4-2W230, which is what I ended up getting.
There wasn't anything outstanding that I could see as far as the drop line condition, check valve or the old pump. Before we pulled anything, one of my friends had one of those cameras, that we sent down the well - it could only go 200 feet, so I can't attest to what it may have been like below that. Up to 200', everything "looked" OK as far as the liner - water wasn't too bad, just a little murky the further you went. Static water line was around 125' - (based on the footage # on the camera screen) - but I had filled up about a 15 gallon tub about 20 minutes or so before doing that, so not sure how much that affected it or not.
About 175' down, there were some holes that started appearing in the 4" liner, look like they were drilled in there, or the pipe came that way - kind of like what I compare to a leach bed pipe - not sure I understand that part, as the diagram said they didn't hit water till 230', so I'm probably confused on how this well is setup?
We did raise the pump about 20' or so - I did try to measure the well depth, but came up at about 415' instead of 455', and I'm not 100% sure if my measurement is super accurate. The original pump was set about 400', and we have it set at around 380 now.
When running the new pump vs the old pump, there is some big differences. I could always hear & feel the old pump running in the pipe coming into the house at the pressure tank - I assumed this was normal, until I ran the new pump. The only way I can tell if this pump is running while in the room now, is having to look at the gauge after I hear the switch click - I can't hear nor feel any vibrations in the pipe when the new pump runs. The volume of water coming out of the hose, which I connected to the Tee at the pressure tank, is much more than it was with the old pump - so I'm guessing that the old pump was still working, but maybe worn out somewhat.

The mud in the water is now just like it was back in late August when I first had the problem - it wasn't near this bad before replacing the pump - so I'm "assuming" that this is due to stirring up the well when replacing the pump? It's clogged two house filters so far since Saturday night (just from taking showers, flushing toilets), and probably needs another one tonight, as the pressure is very low at the faucet - tank pressure is good, so the filter is restricting it...
I've attached a couple pictures of what the water looks like this evening (if it shows up decent); would this be typical after a pump change?
The mud settles to the bottom rather quickly in the house filter, if we don't use water for a couple of hours...

 

[Craigpump]

How big are those drilled holes?

 

[DIY71]

Possibly about the size of a regular marble or so... the were perfectly round, so they had to have been drilled, or came that way (just an educated guess on this part).
Forgot to mention, you could see where the liner was coupled together in lots of places, as it looks like you could see like a primer or glue at the joints- the joints appears to be about every 20' or so, with some odd lengths here & there- one or two times the pump got kind of stuck on the way out, we had to jiggle it around up and & down a few times to get it past what I assumed was stuck at the ledge of a section...
Didn't mention in the original post either, that the muddiness doesn't appear to be related to rain or anything, as I haven't been able to pinpoint muddiness vs weather - here is shot of the wellhead, which is 25" above the ground. Here is a picture of the drillers log & well completion report, from 95/96 also...

 

[Craigpump]

I'm thinking the reason you had to jiggle the pump to get it out is that there may be pieces of rock getting through those round holes in the liner, which is why I always slotted my liner with a skil saw. These days we can buy slotted liner from our supplier and don't have those concerns, plus it's safer than using a skil saw.

It says on your well report that he had mud/water from 230-235, its probable that your dirty water is coming from there. Ordinarily I would suggest pumping the well continuously to see if it will clear, but given those round holes in the liner I'd be afraid of pulling in a lot of material and possibly binding up the pump in the liner. I would pull the pump back to 200' and see if that improves the water quality and hopefully provide enough water to meet your needs.

 

[DIY71]

Thanks for the reply & more info.
What purpose do the slots and/or holes serve, especially if they're above where water/mud was found - I understand the static level is well above where the holes are, just don't understand what they are there for.
The first two well people that I spoke to, when all this first happened, recommended pumping at an average of 5 gpm to try & pump the muddy water out - but the several times I tried that, it almost seemed as though it was worse, and didn't really start getting better until I let the well "recuperate" so to speak, over a long holiday weekend.
I get that the report said mud/water at the level, but if I never really had a water or mud issue for all these years, I'm trying to explain it in my head, as to how running the well low that initial time, has caused this - not saying it exactly did, guess it could have been a heck of a coincidence, or provoked some other event.

I feel that I will be getting a professional involved shortly (can't beat them at their own game!), but I do like to understand certain things, like "what" may or may not have caused an issue like this.
It seems I have plenty of water, and plenty of pressure; it's just a bad mud issue

Don't have a problem with raising the pump more; wish I had raised it more than I did, but that's my fault for not being able to watch and/or familiar with what everyone was doing; pump was spliced & heat shrunk before I had finished trying to measure the well, and I chose to leave it as it was, at about 20' shorter.
If I do raise it, I would much prefer to bring it out a ways, then secure the drop pipe, and take the length off the pitless side, instead of pulling the whole pump again and having to re-splice/shrink - or would that not be recommended?

 

[Craigpump]

The sleeve has holes or slots to allow water to fill the inside of the sleeve. The problem with holes is that they can allow pretty big stuff to get into the liner and stick the pump in the liner. Slots are much thinner so material won't stick the pump in the liner.

I would pull the pump and cut off extra length at the pitless. The pump won't know the difference.

You have to remember that there are no guarantees when you deal with Mother Nature. There could have been a tremor or shift underground that may not have been felt but effected your water.