ProPress Reliability

[Chefwong]

Just curious......

I was working in the boiler room today. Lots of pipes, etc, etc. Tallied up some areas where I plan to -cut and add valving for control and such-.

Just curious since it's been out for awhile. For all you pro/s out there, is Propress -just- as good a solder these days ? Hell, with the advent of sharkbite, I'm sure there's many of these buried inside walls these days ;-)


I'm old school. On my 1st house, I was adamant about keeping things as original as I could. I was cutting/fitting/threading my own brass runs....I've since grown older, wise and it's all CU for me...

 

[hj]

Sharkbite advertises doing the ENTIRE system with SB fittings, so there would be a LOT of them inside the walls. PRopress is doing the same thing and plumbers are doing entire systems with it. I was "old school" and did neither.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Chefwong]

How long has PP been out overseas - is it long enough to say - dry rot- on the o ring is a moot issue ?

Can't wrap my head around it for in-wall use for the long term but I'm sure PP has it's market.....no flames, zero training, anyone can just cut, deburr and press away ?

 

[hj]

zero training, anyone can just cut, deburr and press away ? That is its main attraction. ANYONE can do it without any training. Don't need expensive, well trained, journeymen plumbers any more.

 

[Chefwong]

Ah, so we're saying solder is still the preferred method of connection.

I was doing some light reading on it - no flame jobs for hospitals. Was also seeing some verbiage blogs on others, touting I've got a -lead free- install.
Fittings are expensive, but then the time spent on soldering is much less than a (crimp).
I guess we're concluding PP is NOT a comparable comparison to a solder job ?

------so where does PEX stand for you on this ;-)

I don't live in a area approved for Pex nor do I see myself choosing that if I had the option running that over CU for water feeds.

However, I have used it for final stub-up hookups on some new radiator baseboard installs where the radiator is super flat and hung flush to the wall - where there is literally zero room for anything since the radiator is like 1 1/2 D in profile

 

[Mliu]

Personally, I would not use ProPress or Sharkbite for any permanent connections (especially inside walls). They claim the EPDM o-rings will last 50 years, but they haven't been in use for 50 years to prove it. (They claim their fittings have the same longevity as copper pipe, but copper pipe can last far longer than 50 years.)

Even if EPDM will last 50 years (with various water chemistries), I prefer a soldered connection for copper. If you want to avoid using open flames, get a REMS "Hot Dog 2":

I also have no problem using PEX, now that the dezincification corrosion issues have been resolved.

 

[Chefwong]

In my stumblings of just reading up on where fellow pros stand with this, in a thread over at the ridgid chat place ......I would say out of a dozen fellow tradesmen participating in that thread, 10 of them were basically saying they had gone all in and was ALL PP and have touched a torch in ages...

-Go figure-
Granted, once one leaves the job and or if the -warranty is for 2/3/4/5- years , they once they leave the prem, they will never see the plumbing job ever, until XYZ is written in the scope.

Just a weekend warrior here......but I suppose, for the the original post started, which was pipework in dense setup, close up the ceiling, PP would indeed have some value for the "application" at hand.

 

[Chefwong]

mliu -

I was looking at the Ridgid heat stick a few years back. It's interesting on pricing cause the smaller vs the larger one (which if I recall was just a smidge more hotter) was also a FEW hundred one. Go figure...

 

[Reach4]

If you want to avoid using open flames, get a REMS "Hot Dog 2"

Does that heat by running a high current through the pipe itself?

 

[Chefwong]

Clamp gets -the piping- hot. Hot enough to draw solder in

 

[Mliu]

Does that heat by running a high current through the pipe itself?

It's like a very large, very hot soldering iron. The split square element with holes gets red-hot and clamps on the pipe fittings. No electric current flows in the pipes.

 

[Storm rider]

I can see the benefit of it in tight spots, but 800 degrees seems quite a bit hotter than needed. The solder I use melts at about 450. Anyone using this tool on a regular basis? Have an opinion on it's usefulness?

 

[Plumbs]

I have no problem using propress fittings. I do enjoy soldering but sometimes for convenience I will bring out the press tool. Especially on jobs where the water doesn't shut off all the way or where a flame permit would be needed. Sure, I could do the bread trick or use my jet sweats but I could have a ball valve installed in less than half the time.
I'd like to know why all these "old school" plumbers who are so worried about reliability and long lasting connections aren't brazing every joint? It's several times stronger than solder and takes more skills.
I've installed well over a thousand main water service lines. At least half of those have been hooked up at the pigtail coming off the meter with A.Y. McDonald compression fittings. If I'm not mistaken they also use EPDM to seal. The same material in a standard press fitting. Those have been used for decades underground without issue.

 

[Mliu]

I can see the benefit of it in tight spots, but 800 degrees seems quite a bit hotter than needed. The solder I use melts at about 450. Anyone using this tool on a regular basis? Have an opinion on it's usefulness?

The Hot Dog 2 is rated at 800° Celsius (1,470°F), so that's quite a bit hotter than the ~450°F melting point of common lead-free plumbing solder. That said, the flame of a propane torch in air is 1,980°C (3,600°F). A torch using MAPP gas in air is rated at 2,050°C (3,730°F).

So the Hot Dog is cooler than a torch. Actually, this can lead to a greater possibility of overheating because you must apply the heat longer than with a torch. But the cooler heating elements are countered by the fact that it applies the heat all around the circumference of the pipe simultaneously, as opposed to a torch where you must constantly move the torch around the pipe. And sometimes, that's not possible when working in cramped locations.

Yes, I have one. The things are damn expensive, but I was able to pick one up in almost new condition off Ebay for less than half-price. It is quite useful, although it has its own unique challenges. For example, you can clamp it onto the pipe, thus freeing your hands. But then you sometimes have to scramble to stop your soldering and get it unclamped before it "burns" the joint. (Whereas, with a torch, you can immediately move the flame away.) Also with a torch, you can shut off the flame and it's quickly safe. I have a Bernzomatic torch with a hose:

With this, I can shut off the flame and holster the torch nozzle in the metal sleeve on the side of the cylinder carrier. But with the Hot Dog, when you take it off the pipe, you are holding onto something with a red-hot glowing chunk of metal on its end. You can't put that down just anywhere. It makes it tricky when working up on a ladder. And the Hot Dog has no immediate off (on/off is via the plug; I use a portable GFCI as a switch for it). Even after you shut it off, the element will be dangerously hot for a lot longer than the nozzle of a torch.

And it does put out enough radiant energy to scorch wood that is too close to the joint if you don't use a shield. But it's nice not having that open flame in cramped quarters.

In short, it's a nice tool to have in my "arsenal" of tools. It doesn't completely replace a torch, but it does offer some advantages over a torch in certain situations.

 

[Chefwong]

off topic or on, since we're yakking about soldering, reliability, etc.
Back on my 1st and 2nd projects, I was doing IPS chrome/shutoff for aesthetic purposes and in other areas, I was doing 1/4 soldered valves for inside the cabinets and such. At least it taught me skills on soldering even in tight tolerances. I was doing double -t-s inside the kitchen sink cabinets. Fairly close to the back.....of the cabinet.

In one post, Terry opened my eyes to 5/8 OD compression. I've since skip the solderd 1/4's for the 5/8 compression, however, for the very exposed area's, IMO, nothing still beats the look of IPS pipe/valve.

 

[Chefwong]

The writings on the wall. Did not realize it until I took a deep dive into looking at the tooling.....

Sure, if I go into a room fill with soldered pipes, it would look alot cleaner than one with dog chewed pressed fittings.

In my readings, said press fittings have not only become popular for copper amongst the pro trades, but gas and HVAC installers are using these tooling systems as their primary means of connection. Hell, in one hvac press tool inquiry, I was not even aware that they made a glue -sufficient enough- to just glue two joints together. Anyhow, interesting read regardless on watching industry trends..

I'm not saying press is superior vs. a typical soldered joint, but the industry sure does look like it's moving in this direction ...


Edit
------
Terry or someone once schooled me as I was using soldered shut off valves under the sinks and such. I think the remarks were like, WTH are you doing, soldering shut off valves is for UNION guys - 5/8 compression is where it was it. Had a chuckle yesterday. Was checking out a new build out and saw some soldered shut offs. Which reminded me of the overall sentiments of this thread I started...to solder or not...