Please help me design a new heating system!

[GrumpyPlumber]

Grump....check your PMs

Done buddy, will do tomorrow...Pats season's a comin'!

 

[BigLou]

Good mornin Lou I agree about Keyspan, they have us by the nuts, its a monopoly. So no I dont trust them. So I have the baseboards here, for free. Pex wont cost much to hook them up. So the money I save on the radiant idea I should put it towards a more effecient unit, correct?

My debate with grumpy aside. On the advice of a MA licensed plumber who also has an ENGINEERING DEGREE who designs heating systems for a living and will soon have his Massachusetts Professional Engineer license so he can stamp plans for heating systems for large commercial buildings. I bought the best boiler I could afford and the pay off has been huge. The largest gas bill I saw was for $147 dollars in the month of FEB 2008. That was keeping the house extra warm due to my son who was born in Dec. It even exceeded my friends expectations who said if its around $225, $250 be happy. I hear of some people with $500/month gas bills.

My total out of pocket cost for a GB142 and all the supplies to make it work was a little under $5500 if I remember correctly. My friend installed it for free because I sided his house. Last year gas networks was offering a $1000.00 rebate I belive they are still offering the same thing this year.

The way I see it I save about $500/year at current cost over a standard boiler. for what ended up being a $1,500 upcharge(before the $1000 rebate instead of a $500) over the standard gas replacement I will have broke even in 2 years. I know it was only $1500 more becuase we priced a complete standard system with the double walled vent pipe(thats where they get you).

Like grumpy said only your plumber knows the conditions at your house and can tell you where and how this thing will have to be installed. At my house we needed quite a bit of stainless steel vent pipe.

One other bit of added efficiency for the mod/con is they are sealed combustion. They do not negativly pressurize your home and draw in cold air that then needs to be heated

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gnfanatic]

Hey Grump, I truly hope i am driving you guys crazy! I really aprpeciate the help!!! there is a 10 week wait to run the line to my house!! I am going to get the permits and paperwork ASAP.

-I will install radiant in my floor for future use.
- My old boiler which is on a slab (obv) is directly below the chimney. I know I need to install a SS chimney liner for it, or it wont pass code.

-I have a choice here. Either I slowly build the system I really want and possibly not have heat this winter OR build something in my budget and not have the effeiceny and choices I originally wanted???

I can slowly build the system with a kick ass boiler, I know it will be more then $6000 for everything. i will slowly build it up when money allows.

Am I crazy for thinking this? I am pissing you guys off? i hope not!

 

[BigLou]

You still need Circs, relay, electrician w/permits for the co detector (inspector will require it) as well as a myriad of other stock & hardware.

If his system is all ripped out already won't he need these things no matter what kind of boiler he goes with ? ???

Lou, puuulllleease...condensing is condensing is condensing, I find it particularly funny that you tell me I need some schoolin' when I don't agree with your mistake.

where did I make a mistake ? show me ? I guess my truck has a condensing motor because some of the exhaust condenses in the tail pipe

I know that 50 is the new 40 and 30 is the new 20..so I guess 27 is the new 17, where you know everything there is to know about everything.

now thats just funny. its old enough to get out of college and know a few things but thats about all. At least I don't always think I am right

nhMaster is a licensed plumbing instructor & shop owner who's job is to stay well abreast of anything new for both, if he tells me something, I listen.

Thats nice glad you listen to some one.

Telling me I need to get up to date with the new stuff is cute, I think as you proceed in your well informed debate you're likely giving many a quiet chuckle.

I'm nowhere near as old as you think, the picture I use isn't me.

If you don't know who that pic is, you missed my whole "schtick".

I am well aware of who the pic is and that its obiously not you. I am glad that the all knowing plumbers on this form a getting a chuckle out of this. Its always better to laugh at people then to learn from them right ?

Lou

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Lou, for once your figures make sense, $5500 sounds about right for stock only with a 2 zone and existing pipes in place.

NOT in Ng's case, his stuff is ripped out, also it's a one pipe sytem that needs substantial work.

The $5k to $800 figure remains in question, though oil does have a substantially higher cost and your old boiler was no question short cycling, thats a bit off.

Now, factor in the radiant and maybe you finally understand the dilemma Ng is in, having ripped out his baseboard...also the added work of re-installing the removed piping & radiators.

Your friends acheivements have nothing to do with you, your not an expert via exposure.

The simple fact that you stand your ground about the buderus not condensing at higher temps says you haven't even called him with the question and are just name throwing to win a debate.

Call him and ask.

If not, call Buderus tech support, they're fantastic with questions.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Hey Grump, I truly hope i am driving you guys crazy! I really aprpeciate the help!!! there is a 10 week wait to run the line to my house!! I am going to get the permits and paperwork ASAP.

-I will install radiant in my floor for future use.
- My old boiler which is on a slab (obv) is directly below the chimney. I know I need to install a SS chimney liner for it, or it wont pass code.

-I have a choice here. Either I slowly build the system I really want and possibly not have heat this winter OR build something in my budget and not have the effeiceny and choices I originally wanted???

I can slowly build the system with a kick ass boiler, I know it will be more then $6000 for everything. i will slowly build it up when money allows.

Am I crazy for thinking this? I am pissing you guys off? i hope not!

You are, bit it's all good, for once I feel like my "grumpy" nature has accomplished something.

The thought of you on the phone with Nat'l Grind at the start of September announcing you're all set and ready to go gave me the chills.

There'd be a sequence of events...

You calling the inspector right after...
The inspector telling you to get a plumber...
The plumber reaming you on price and explaining half the work is useless...
You resort to a second mortgage to pay it...
Or...worse, electric space heaters on a home with old steam pipes most likely means outdated electrical, not real good with space heaters.

 

[BigLou]

Lou, for once your figures make sense, $5500 sounds about right for stock only with a 2 zone and existing pipes in place.

Thanks glad to know you agree with my reciepts

NOT in Ng's case, his stuff is ripped out, also it's a one pipe sytem that needs substantial work.

I thought we both agreed long ago that $6,000 was not going to work.

The $5k to $800 figure remains in question, though oil does have a substantially higher cost and your old boiler was no question short cycling, thats a bit off.

I think I may have mis added and its more like $900 a year in gas bills. If you don't believe me come over and I will show you my oil slips and gas bills. The mod/con always operates at peak efficiency and the savings add up.

Now, factor in the radiant and maybe you finally understand the dilemma Ng is in, having ripped out his baseboard...also the added work of re-installing the removed piping & radiators.

I understood all along he had a budget issue but it appears he has time on his side and can save up more money.

Your friends acheivements have nothing to do with you, your not an expert via exposure.

Correct. I do haver have college course work under my belt in heating system design and efficiency. I think this qualifies me to discuss the subject. I was also trying to show that these were not my ideas alone some one with more schooling then both of us thinks its the way to go.

The simple fact that you stand your ground about the buderus not condensing at higher temps says you haven't even called him with the question and are just name throwing to win a debate.

Call him and ask.

If not, call Buderus tech support, they're fantastic with questions.

I E Mailed him on your advice. When he replies I will post here and admit that I am wrong if thats the case

Lou

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Interesting that a college teaches condensing isn't condensing.

What college?
What course?

 

[BigLou]

Grumpy,
looks like I will have to call buderus to see if I can't find some on to agree with you. AT 155 degree exhaust temp the boiler is not condensing. There may be some condensation in the pipe AFTER it leaves the boiler BUT THE BOILER IS NOT CONDENSING. Maybe the company will disagree.


Lou

 

[Jadnashua]

I will say that with my Buderus system, on a cold winter's day, the amount of water rushing down the exhaust vent pipe sounds like a small stream after a heavy rainfall. Most of the time, it's only running around 130-140 degree water temp. On a really cold day, especially if it is windy, it might get higher, but I've seen it run at 110-120 for extended periods with the circulators calling for heat, too. Even with the gas price supply increases over the last few years, mine still costs less than before. The one I replaced was supposedly 87% efficient. The ability to match the house's needs to the boiler output is a great comfort and economy improver.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

The Burnham SCG, for example...
You need to pitch the SS venting or connect a drip tee to accomodate for condensate, there is mild condensate, the venting is SS due to the ph levels in condensate in the first place.
This boiler is made to run at 180.

The Buderus is condensing, it will condense water vapor when running, less at higher temperatures, try removing the two connections to the condensate pump at higher temps to test this.

The confusion here is the level of heat transfered to convection via water vapor.

Water turns to steam at 210.

Water vapor heated above 210 that comes in contact with a surface below that temperature will condense.

The lower the temperature, the higher the amount of energy absorbed through water vapor, in theory you could run almost 100% efficient at temps under 100...not very practical.

 

[NHmaster]

This condensing VS not condensing argument has reached the point of stupid. Of course it's condensing a 155 degrees, look at the water flowing out your condensate line.
It condenses at ALL OPERATING temperatures.