Please help me design a new heating system!

Discussion in 'HVAC Heating & Cooling' started by Gnfanatic, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Absoluty correct. In fact if they did not condense there would be a hell of a problem in the venting department as the excedssive temperature melted the silicone gaskets.
     
  2. BigLou

    BigLou New Member

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    Nov 7, 2007

    I did ? I think I said $6k was not going to work. I think I told him to abandon the radiant idea for now and install something cheaper but maybe I am losing my mind.

    I am fairly confident that he had already ripped his home apart and did not do so on my advising

    Right I get that part. Unless I missed the boat this usually happens at around 140-135 degrees, so 155 is still 15 degrees above that point. While some gas may condense out in the flue the boiler is not actively condensing. But hey maybe I am all wrong.

    Ok so steam is created at 210 at the right atmospheric pressure, and the unit has a max temp of 196. This has what to do with anything ????

    I see you point the guy needs to take action and fast if he wants to be warm this winter. I also see your point that he is very limited on his budget and this will impact the decisions he has to make. I still think he should get the most efficient boiler he can possibly afford even if its hooked up to baseboard Its going to be worth it in the long run. GAS IS NOT GETTING ANY CHEAPER!!!!!!!
     
  3. BigLou

    BigLou New Member

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    UMMMM most if not all silicone is good to at least 500 degreees. I agree you would have one hell of a problem if the flue gasses were 500 degrees in a PVC pipe.
     
  4. Gnfanatic

    Gnfanatic Member

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    guys, sheesh! Their are many ways to skin a cat :) Please dont get into arguments, you all have you own idea's which is great. I spoke to my friend who is a plumber. He is a licensed plumber for my area. Due to the tight money i am going to take adv of keyspans $899 deal. He is going to do all the paperwork and such, and will pick up the unit for me. I also heard I can install something outside the house that will make the unit more effecient as well. Up to 90% he stated?? Someone asked me why the radiant flooring? well why not? Its 79 cents a foot for the oxy barrier , i do realize I need manifolds and such, I heard its the most effecient system to go with . Guys , not only my system was very old but those big ass rad's were in my walls and had no installation behind them.I was spending $300 a month on oil when the house was at 60 degrees!! Thats why I ripped them out. I have ALOT of Burnhad cast iron baseboard rad's! I can do my whole house with them instead of the radiant heating but I thought radiant was the way to go!! SO, should I jsut use the burnhams and forget about radiant???? I forgot to mention to you guys I am not living in this house yet, I sure wish I was!! Worse comes to worse, I jsut wont have heat this winter. All my water lines are empty. Another thing, I myself installed all new sheetrock, high qaulity installtion (better then r13), Anderson 400 series windows and r40 in the attic, all walls and outlets are sealed. So the house is well insulated.

    thanks guys!!
     
  5. BigLou

    BigLou New Member

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    Nov 7, 2007
    Ralph,

    I would save your money and go with the baseboards. Heavy basebaords like that will produce nice even comfortable heat. You also can't beat the price right ?

    Before you take the keyspan deal. Remember they are in business to sell you gas not save you money. They plan on your gas bill being high enough to pay off the money they are subsidizing the unit with. Don't believe what anybody tells you about installing something outside and getting 90% efficiency. Unless you start condensing its just not possible. There are a few things you can install that will help with short cycling and what not. They however will not make an 80% efficient unit 90% just not possible

    goood luck

    Lou
     
  6. Gnfanatic

    Gnfanatic Member

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    Grumpy, I removed the system months ago :) One of things I really dont understand is the cost os the radiant system you guys are taling about. Sounds like it costs alot?? I guess I am mis-informed but these sites I go on like radianttec.com tells you how to install one without costing alot of money. It was in my head that radiant for the living room, kitchen and bath would cost me about $1000 in materials? At least thats what it looks like on their site.


    :)
     
  7. Gnfanatic

    Gnfanatic Member

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    Good mornin Lou :) I agree about Keyspan, they have us by the nuts, its a monopoly. So no I dont trust them. So I have the baseboards here, for free. Pex wont cost much to hook them up. So the money I save on the radiant idea I should put it towards a more effecient unit, correct?
     
  8. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    Gn...thats great news.
    The outdoor thing he's talking about is a temperature sensor, smart move, but make sure you have the essentials first, that can be added later..NH mentioned it earlier this thread.

    Also, Gn, the Buderus GB142 cost me $3,800 a year ago, I imagine it's gone up since...I STRONGLY suggest you talk with your plumber regarding what stock you still need before depleting that much of what you have left in your budget.

    You still need Circs, relay, electrician w/permits for the co detector (inspector will require it) as well as a myriad of other stock & hardware.

    Lou, puuulllleease...condensing is condensing is condensing, I find it particularly funny that you tell me I need some schoolin' when I don't agree with your mistake.

    I know that 50 is the new 40 and 30 is the new 20..so I guess 27 is the new 17, where you know everything there is to know about everything.

    nhMaster is a licensed plumbing instructor & shop owner who's job is to stay well abreast of anything new for both, if he tells me something, I listen.

    Telling me I need to get up to date with the new stuff is cute, I think as you proceed in your well informed debate you're likely giving many a quiet chuckle.

    I'm nowhere near as old as you think, the picture I use isn't me.

    If you don't know who that pic is, you missed my whole "schtick".
     
  9. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    He may not realize the cost of the GB142...read what I posted above, sounds like you don't have the extra $4k for the boiler alone.

    Also, if you go for the SCG, be VERY sure you talk to your plumber about it's location vs windows, doors and vent length...the SS vent can add up to a BIG portion of your cost...there's a bit of strategy involved in locating the boiler.
     
  10. Gnfanatic

    Gnfanatic Member

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    hhhmmm, man, sounds like I screwed up or what? The reason i removed the radiators and pipes were because
    1-) No installation in the walls behind rads
    2-) system was old.
    3-) Someone told me its an old steam system, they arent effecient at all ( agreed to this becuase I saw the oil I was using). the system had black steel pipes. I thought these pipes were only used for steam, I never saw someone else's house with black pipes, always copper. so I thought they were useless as well.
     
  11. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    Yes, you made some mistakes, potentially costly ones.

    At this point it's best you work on NOT making more costly mistakes as well as incorporating your plumbers advice.
    He see's the layout and design firsthand, we don't...and some of the advice here might not be the best advice (the internet is a great place to play expert).

    Those black pipes are alot more common that you think, they could have been partly used to convert to hydronic and have been a part of your system, but thats history.
    I see steam conversions all the time, the copper you see is on newer homes.

    Copper is very expensive as well, not to mention time consuming over just reusing the steel (black) that you removed.

    Steam is generally a little less efficient than gas, but in your case with your budget it might have been a viable option over the small percentage of difference in efficiency.

    Again, the BIG savings in your case is the simple conversion from oil to gas.
     
  12. Gnfanatic

    Gnfanatic Member

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    Hey grumpy, so unf I screwed up. I would like to use Pex instead of copper which will save me money as well. At least I have the burnhams I can use. When you talk about the layout and design. Do you mean size of rooms, location of rooms, location of windows and size of windows?
     
  13. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    There is a misconception that cast iron baseboard or for that matter radiators are more efficient. Just not true and If you take a minute to think about it you will agree. Cast iron rads are great for comfort, they "radiate" warmth into the room. I have them in my house because I like them, but they are not more efficient than copper fin tube baseboard. Why? Copper fin tube baseboard is designed to take the heat from the water and release it into the room as quickly as possible. In other words if everything was "perfect" you could put 180 degree water in one end and have room temperature come out the other. ( a perfecdt delta T) In reality that can't and doesn't happen for a lot of technical reasons, however copper fin tube is a more efficient method of heat transfer than cast iron radiators. Conversly a heating system that holds less water is more efficient because the fire doesn't have to heat a large volume of water before it is delivered to the fin tube. Boilers have gotten smaller and hold less volume of water for a reason. Ideally the boiler itself is able to extract and deliver as much heat from the fire as possible. That's why low volume boilers are so efficient. Condensing is merely a by product of the boilers ability to extract and deliver that heat. You can make anything condense just by lowering the firing rate and or moving water at low temperatures thorugh the vessell. As an aside a steel boiler will be more efficient than cast iron because steel transfers heat better. Radiant heat is not more efficient. It is more comfortable. Maximum efficiency would be an open flame in your living room. Thats 100% heat transfer. There is always a trade off when an exchanger is involves and another reason why forced hot air is more efficient. A forced hot air furnace only has one exchange. A forced hot water system has two.
     
  14. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    Nh is correct, also, large radiators hold more heated water...
    Once the t-stat is satisfied, they continue to release heat much more so than baseboard.
     
  15. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    Talk to your plumber about using the correct pex, the wrong kind can easily shorten the life of your new boiler.
     
  16. Gnfanatic

    Gnfanatic Member

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    guys, will my rads keep a tiled floor warm as well? Thats why I wanted to put radiant in the first place. I dont want cold tiles!
     
  17. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    That and the exhaust.
    Code is very strict on distance from windows, doors and other openings/outlets from co exhaust.

    It's a "strategy" finding the best location to put the boiler vs expense on SS venting in conjunction with some other variables to find the most cost effective placement.
     
  18. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    Nope.

    However, where your floors are already ripped up, you could consider running loops as a predictive measure for future use.

    Right now, it looks like you just don't have the money for the additional hardware to do radiant, you might skim enough loot to add pex lines under the flloor and leave stubs below.

    Talk to your plumber about this to make sure you do it smart and not paint yourself into a corner later on.
     
  19. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    Also, Gn...you may have to come down to Earth on a few expectations.

    I understand all things petroleum are very expensive, but it seems to me like you might be expecting caviar and champagne on a fast food budget.

    You haven't a lot of time to waste exploring options.
    Get your plumber to schedule this, get Keyspan (nat'l grid) on the phone, get the ball rolling.

    You need to prioritize getting the boiler and getting it up and running...maybe your area is different, but Nat'l grid has been VERY difficult to get on the phone, the populace it seems, is inundating them with requests.
     
  20. Cass

    Cass Plumber

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    Ohio
    Grump....check your PMs
     
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