Pitless adapters which one

[NorthCanyon]

I'm looking for a pitless adapter for a new well 6" casing. I order twoed one is a campbell the other a Merrill so I look at the differences between the two. It seems the price of adapters is pretty wide so I was wondering what the members here think about the different brands of 1 1/4 adapters.

thanks

 

[Valveman]

I wouldn't think there would be much difference between those two.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[shane21]

I'm with Cary on this one, very little difference between them. Do you need a 1-1/4" pitless adapater?

The only other recommendation I would have for you is to maybe go with the one that leaves the least amount of interference inside the well casing when the pump is pulled so you can get drilling tools down the well easier in case the well ever needs serviced with a rig in the future. If we are using slide type pitless adpaters, which I am assuming you are referring to, we usually opt for the Dicken JRS-10 1" pitless adapter because it only protrudes into the well about 1/2" when the pump is removed from the well and usually allows us to get a full size drill bit in the well without having to dig up the pitless adpater and remove it. A 1" pitless adpater will easily accommodate 20 GPM flow rates and even more though the higher you go the more likely it is that you will see greater wear of the brass material over time.

 

[Valveman]

In 5" casing I use the 1" slide pitless and there is enough room to pass a 4" flow inducer sleeve down the well.

 

[shane21]

It's great you understand the purpose of flow inducer sleeves valveman, so many people in this industry just don't understand that submersible motors need a minimum flow to keep them cool! It's always a good idea to check the manufacturer specs of the submersible motor you are installing to make sure you are designing the system to keep it cool!

A flow inducer sleeve may or may not be needed for this submersible motor, but in a 5" well the drilling tools and drill bit would likely present more of a clearance issue than the inducer sleeve even if it were needed. For the OP's stated 6" well the presence of a 4" flow inducer sleeve is even less of a concern since it will easily pass by either of the pitless adapters he mentioned, the larger concern here is still the drill bit if the well ever needs serviced with a rig.

Even if the the pitless adapter used ends up being in the way should you need to service the well with a drilling rig one day, your worst case scenario is digging it up and removing it so the well service can be performed. Maybe not the most appealing scenario but certainly manageable with a shovel and cooperating weather.

 

[Valveman]

It's great you understand the purpose of flow inducer sleeves valveman, so many people in this industry just don't understand that submersible motors need a minimum flow to keep them cool! It's always a good idea to check the manufacturer specs of the submersible motor you are installing to make sure you are designing the system to keep it cool!

A flow inducer sleeve may or may not be needed for this submersible motor, but in a 5" well the drilling tools and drill bit would likely present more of a clearance issue than the inducer sleeve even if it were needed. Even if the the pitless adapter you choose ends up being in the way should you need to service the well with a drilling rig one day your worst case scenario is digging it up and removing it while the well service is performed.

I know all about motor cooling than most. Which is one reason I actually manufacture shroud heads. If you purchase them from your supplier they may have come from me. I always follow manufacturers guidelines. However, guidelines change greatly when de-rating the motor load. It is not quite as easy as the chart showing the old half a foot per second rule of thumb. I get even more precise with amps, water temp, and actual flow rate required, which is why there has never been a motor overheated using a CSV in 26 years.

As long as I can get the shroud down the 5" casing I am good. It would be rare to go back in a well here with anything other than a bailer, air line, or brush. If we have more problems than that we just have to move over and drill a new well. But good to know about the flush fitting pitless.

 

[shane21]

which is why there has never been a motor overheated using a CSV in 26 years.

If you aren't providing the proper water flow around the motor for proper cooling you are likely, by definition, overheating the motor. You may not be overheating it to such an extent that the motor has visible signs of heat fatigue, but that doesn't mean you aren't subjecting the motor to higher heat than the manufacturer has designed it to handle. Just simply following the manufacturer's published cooling guidelines removes any concern of overheating issues.

As long as I can get the shroud down the 5" casing I am good. It would be rare to go back in a well here with anything other than a bailer, air line, or brush. If we have more problems than that we just have to move over and drill a new well. But good to know about the flush fitting pitless.

I agree that in most cases simply bailing, brushing or air scouring a well is the proper protocol for well rehabilitation but about 15% of wells in our area do benefit from using a bit to clean them, or deepen them if they are in a bedrock formation, to get production of the well back to an acceptable quantity. In these cases having a clear well type pitless adapter, or the smallest protruding slide type pitless adapter possible, saves us time and the homeowner money.

 

[Valveman]

If you aren't providing the proper water flow around the motor for proper cooling you are likely, by definition, overheating the motor. You may not be overheating it to such an extent that the motor has visible signs of heat fatigue, but that doesn't mean you aren't subjecting the motor to higher heat than the manufacturer has designed it to handle. Just simply following the manufacturer's published cooling guidelines removes any concern of overheating issues.

If you subject a motor to a critical temperature, it will crater within minutes. I have tested many hundreds of motors to complete destruction. Many with temp and flow probes placed in strategic locations. I know how it happens. A motor operating with a lack of flow will run fine for a few hours. Then when it gets to that critical temperature it will go south in a matter of seconds and trip the overload. Cycling on/off will make it accumulate heat over time. But with a lack of flow it won't run but a short time, depending on the water temp, before it takes a dive. If there are no visible sings of heat fatigue, then you are not subjecting the motor to higher heat than the motor is designed for. That is what they look for in a warranty inspection.

 

[shane21]

Cary I'm not sure why this same issue keeps coming up in multiple threads by I'm sure the rest of the forum participants don't need this polluting every thread. It is very simple to end this with the statement below and your response to it:

Running any electrical device in an environment warmer than it was intended to operate within will likely shorten the life of that electrical component (this also applies to electric submersible pump motors).

If you disagree with this statement then you just flat out don't understand the impact of heat on electrical components and that explains your opinion on the matter.

If you agree with the statement then you know keeping the motor cooled within the specifications of the manufacturer will provide the longest motor life possible in any given situation.

If you agree but think the motor manufacturers are lying about the capabilities of their motors then please explain why any company or industry would purposely misrepresent the capabilities of their product in such a way as to preclude its use in a multitude of applications - thus costing itself money.

 

[Valveman]

Running any electrical device in an environment warmer than it was intended to operate within will likely shorten the life of that electrical component (this also applies to electric submersible pump motors).

Sure I agree with that statement. What you don't understand is the CSV never lets a pump run in an environment warmer than intended.

Pump manufacturers are not your friend. Yes they are lying and sticking it to you in ways you can't even imagine. Yes they promote using motors in all kinds of conditions including hot water. They are just not going to let you know that what they do to make it pump hot water will allow the same motor to work safely with a very small amount of cool water. That would mean a CSV cools motors much easier than their hugely profitable VFD's, and they are not going to say anything to promote a product that is disruptive to their profits. I have asked them many times if the motor is de-rated enough it can pump any flow rate of 140F, how much 60F water does it need to stay cool? See if you can get an honest answer to that question. Hitachi is the only motor company forthcoming and honest enough to answer that question for me.

I can tell you the answer to that question only because I tested Franklin motors myself, hundreds of times. The minimum flow through a CSV is designed to be at least twice as much as needed to cool a de-rated motor in cool water. Your argument is getting old. I showed you proof with two letters from a prominent motor manufacturer to prove my point, and you have shown nothing but the old rule of thumb guidelines that have nothing to do with a de-rated motor. Get a letter from Franklin stating that a CSV will not allow enough flow and they will disallow a warranty, or you have no proof of what you say. That would be really funny if they would write you a letter, as they sell things like that In-line 400 which works at much lower flow rates than a CSV.

 

[shane21]

Okay this quickly devolving into near lunacy. Are you really asking me to get a letter in writing from a manufacturer that states someone using a CSV will void a warranty? All a manufacturer is likely to do in that case, if they didn't just disregard such a nonsensical request, is run the math on the flow rate and say that if it doesn't meet the minimum cooling specs then you are operating the motor in an unintended environment and they reserve the right to deny warranty coverage.

You are missing the whole point of the argument, it is less about warranty and more about the long term impact on the motor from prolonged exposure to higher temperatures, even if those temperatures are not high enough to cause catastrophic failure within the warranty period.

You clearly don't understand this issue at all if you are claiming the motor manufacturer is somehow allowing for less than the minimum cooling water flow when used with "their hugely profitable VFD's" when it says in plain black and white what those specs are and makes no exemption for their proprietary VFD use. In the case of Franklin Electric they specifically state their 4-inch super stainless motors need no specific minimum flow rate to maintain proper cooling as long as some water movement is present, so by your logic they are promoting CVS use in their motors below 3 HP but conspiring against it for motors at 3 HP and up? Is it more likely that the heat dissipation properties of their smaller motors are significantly more effective at low flows than their larger motors or that "they are lying and sticking it to you in ways you can't even imagine" but only on their line of 3 HP and larger motors? Again man you are progressing from conspiratorial and approaching the realm of lunacy.

The letters you linked to Hitachi are great for Hitachi motors, but that letter doesn't then apply to all submersible motors even if you say it does, and implying such is only steering homeowners into an unnecessarily risky environment. The only take away from those letters is that people should use Hitachi motors if they are concerned, nothing more.

This argument will never get old and will always be valid unless somehow it can be proven that motor manufacturers are flat out lying about the cooling needs of their product.

 

[Valveman]

They can't deny a warranty for something that might happen, only if it does happen. Yeah they say the "Super Stainless" motor will survive with no specific flow rate or even a shroud. But that is because they shortened them up so much that the intake is much closer to the end of the motor like on a 3HP. But you have to remember, it is a conspiracy, they sell motors. Recommending no flow or no shroud just helps them sell more motors. All they care is that most of their motors make it past the warranty date. But an engineer told me one time they had rather warranty half of all the motors they make, than make a motor so good they never get a warranty claim. Repeat business would be nonexistent that way.
Of course they make no exceptions to the minimum flow for VFD controlled pumps, they can't. That is exactly why they don't want to admit that a de-rated full speed motor will be fine with reduced flow.

You are missing the point. There is no higher temperature at the minimum flow designed into the CSV. They are not lying about the cooling requirements of their motor if you know how to interpret what they say about de-rated motors . But if you don't, they will let you keep playing the fool.

My take away from this is you know you can't get Franklin to say anything negative about the CSV. Franklin doesn't have to say anything because they have you playing the fool for them. They let little rumors play out and get guys like you will make stuff up to scare people away from something that would cut into their motor business.

BTW, ask them what the minimum flow for the In-line 400 is? LOL!