PEX Expansion Issues

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hafehd

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I'm a professional, licensed plumber in Wisconsin. After many years working for another company, a partner and I started our own business. We decided at the outset to switch from PEX B crimp system (which we were both familiar with and used for 10+ years) to PEX A expansion. We based this decision on a seeming general perception that it's more reliable, some word of mouth, full flow fittings, etc., etc. Seemingly all the large, reputable, plumbing companies in the area seem to use it (of their work that I've seen). Basically, the impression we got was that the system is foolproof and headache-free, nearly leak-proof.

It's been nothing but problems. On our second large job, we had multiple poly fittings that were cracked and leaked after pressurization. Our wholesaler promised us they had never seen this before. Since then, we haven't had any problems with the fittings being broken, but have had regular problems with the joints leaking. Thankfully, nothing catastrophic, all leaks present themselves shortly after pressurization. I reached out to Milwaukee Tool tech support and they recommended doing a few more clicks than we had been doing - their reasoning being more expansion, more pliability, better seal. We've also made sure to leave more time for the joints to "set up" after expansion.

Our wholesaler also switched brands from Legend to Sharkbite pipe at this time, apparently we were not the only ones having issues.

Now I just got back from a Sunday night call to repair some DIY work, and one of my PEX joints failed. Again, not catastrophically, but this is becoming a real pain. So now we're invested in a system that is definitely *not* leak proof, takes longer, is more difficult to use in small spaces, and requires expensive tools. My questions are:

- Are others seeing issues like I'm having?

- If so, is it equipment, fittings, pipe, user error?

- Why is it that that seemingly the entire industry is moving towards expansion? It seems to me the only drawback of the crimp system is the reduced size at fittings, but in my experience this never caused any issues except with municipal inspectors.
 

doc1623

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Hopefully, a bump for you but if possible, questions too.

I'm not making any money currently. So, I have been trying to do some badly needed work myself. My house is copper, except for where a plumbing company did my washer shutoff valves...they did pex. From, what I read, I thought most professionals used pex A but your post makes me question that.

Between having a little of (what I assumed was) pex A, I was going to stick with that. Also, supposed to be less restrictive. I also try and get stuff from habitat-restores. Which presumable would have more pex A.

Anyway, I need to do some and Pex should be easy except for the expensive tools. I bought one, mirroring what the "pros" used. It's a drill attachment (dewalt) for attaching rings to pex (says only b, but I wonder). I didn't realize it wasn't supposed to work with pex A and I didn't realize pex A was expansion. They gave some cheaper manual expansion tools but I don't know how well they work.

Recommendations?

Lastly, I'm sure you probably know but on reddit, they were saying UV could damage pex in a very short amount of time, so they said don't leave it out on a worksite. I doubt this is your issue, but it's the only thing I found while looking.
 

Reach4

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Doc1623:
1. Most of Texas is IPC code, but some big cities are UPC.
2. You can use compression rings and stainless steel clamps on fittings made for PEX B or C. The pipe is the same size. The fittings are different from F1960 expansion fittings, so if you use copper rings, get the usually-cheaper fittings.

I have never seen a drill attachment tool for pex. Got a link? Hand tools work well if you have clearance.
 

Reach4

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JohnCT

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Our wholesaler also switched brands from Legend to Sharkbite pipe at this time, apparently we were not the only ones having issues.

Was the Legend pipe type A or was it PE-RT?
Who made the poly fittings? I've found them nearly indestructible - hard to imagine them cracking.

Any chance your expansion head has a burr or some other defect on it?
Have you checked to make sure your power tool is rotating the expansion head?
Was the pipe very cold during expansion?

Zurn makes (or sells) a specifically modified expansion head which breaks up any direct line ridges during expansion. This seems like a very good advancement in the design.



John
 

doc1623

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Doc1623:
1. Most of Texas is IPC code, but some big cities are UPC.
2. You can use compression rings and stainless steel clamps on fittings made for PEX B or C. The pipe is the same size. The fittings are different from F1960 expansion fittings, so if you use copper rings, get the usually-cheaper fittings.

I have never seen a drill attachment tool for pex. Got a link? Hand tools work well if you have clearance.

There are two, one for the full "ring" and the other for those other ones i.e. ring with a crimp. I have the full ring one. Guess it's impact driver attachment not "drill" but I have one of those too


both new
 

"Fitz"

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Uponor APEX pipe settled several class action suits in several states.
I know this because recently my waterline erupted.
The plumbing company that repaired the leaks identified the pipe as PEX A.
They referred me to the articles online. Uponor Inc. was the defendant.
Oregon, where I live was not one of the states involved.
So, now I am trying to figure out how I can recoup for damages done
from a flooded crawl space.
All suggestions are welcome.
The first thing I am doing is replace that junk pipe.
 

"Fitz"

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H, according to the lawsuit, the process to put the red or blue color on PEX pipe was a heating process.
The heat made the pipe brittle, which caused stress fractures.
 

JohnCT

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H, according to the lawsuit, the process to put the red or blue color on PEX pipe was a heating process.
The heat made the pipe brittle, which caused stress fractures.

That may be partially true, but there are instances of white Uponor also failing..

John
 

Eman85

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I'm not a plumber, but I've done complete re-pipes on a couple of houses FWIW and plenty of repairs. I went with compression and crimp ring style and have the manual tools and a cordless crimp tool. In my own home I don't see any difference in flow or pressure having replaced all of my CPVC with PEX type B. What is the big attraction to A aside from flexibility of the pipe? I know the fittings are slightly larger but as I said is it noticeable?
 

JohnCT

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I know the fittings are slightly larger but as I said is it noticeable?

With enough fittings installed flow rate is noticeable. Expansion also offers a more secure connection, and no tool calibration is ever required. Depending on your PEX B, you might have been able to use the F1960 expansion fittings.

John
 

Nebojsa

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Are there any statistics out there, where using PEX A with PEX B fitting would be better.
 

JohnCT

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Are there any statistics out there, where using PEX A with PEX B fitting would be better.

I don't see how. The big advantage of A was the F1960 expansion fittings/system. Some B PEX is now rated for using the type A expansion system and fittings.

If you're going to crimp PEX A, then just use B unless you already have A in stock.

John
 

Reach4

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I could see advantage to being able to mix these. Some situations are hard to build with an expansion fitting, and might be easy with clamp or crimp. With expansion, you have to be fairly quick to put the PEX onto the fitting. With others, you can pretty much put things together at leisure. But one big advantage to expansion is that you cannot forget to actually crimp or clamp.

I also had a problem with wet pipe using expansion (perhaps because my tool was manual). I expect crimp/clamp would work fine with wet pipe.

Another advantage to mixing is that some devices are only available in clamp/crimp (F1807 or F2159), and if available, F1960 (expansion) fittings are more expensive. If running a line for a humidifier or ice maker, the flow is low. There would be no significant difference in flow rate.

That said, I have only used expansion except (SharkBite for a temporary).

I don't know which will be more long-lived.
 

Nebojsa

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The only reason i asked about mixing Pex A tube with Pex B fittings is that, from reading here on the forums most of the Pex A leaks are around the expansion part. Some leaks occur elsewhere also, but mostly around the expansion part.
I was more thinking that if you use Pex b fittings, you might eliminate some or all the leaks around the fittings. Just wondering.
 

JohnCT

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The only reason i asked about mixing Pex A tube with Pex B fittings is that, from reading here on the forums most of the Pex A leaks are around the expansion part. Some leaks occur elsewhere also, but mostly around the expansion part.

If you ask me, any PEX A that is likely to leak at the expansion joint is just as likely to leak anywhere along the pipe.

Here's the thing - most people with Uponor A never have a single leak, but those that do seem to have a constant leak issues both at the expansion, formed radius, or even straight sections. This means *something* has gone wrong. Whether it's a bad run of pipe, bad pre-installation handling of the pipe, bad water, some other yet unknown issue. - does it matter?

In other words, the expansion itself doesn't seem to be the problem with leaks.

If you were one of those few but unfortunate souls that had leaks because of the bad run, bad install, bad water (or whatever), you might have bought a year or so if you didn't expand, but the pipe would have failed at some point anyway.

John
 

DJ Metal

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FWIW, I was a plumber for 35+ years, till a near fatal work accident (long and boring story there that I won't bore you guys with) forced me to retire some 15 years ago.

So unfortunately, I've only used Pex-A (Sharkbite) twice and both times we're when I remodeled the kitchen and than the bathroom in my old house.

I did it mostly just to try it out and see what it was all about when my old pals at a local plumbing supply house I used daily turned me on to the stuff when I went in there for stuff I thought I needed.

They said "Hey Bro! Forget that copper stuff, don't want any of that! You gotta see this new stuff and wait till you try it out, you gotta see this man, it's way faster, wayyy easier, much neater, and far cheaper than outdated old copper and your hands wont even get dirty doing this stuff, we swear, you'll never wanna touch copper ever again!"

So natch., I hit the brakes and was like "whhhhaaaaaat?"
I initially thought they were just trying to push some new-fangled junk they invested in and couldn't sell onto meI
So I just had to see what was this magical stuff they were jawing on and on about and hyping up after I got a few earfuls about how great it was and the quick hands on lesson in how easy and simple it was to install, man, I thought I would be hooked.

I was amazed and couldn't wait to get back to my house and try the stuff out!
Once I got started I was quickly impressed at how easy it was all going, at first.
I was done, or so I thought I was, in just under 3 hours!
Kitchen sink, dishwasher, fridge's ice maker on the first floor, the supply line towards the boiler (6 feet away) and water heater, the washing machine and slop sink in the cellar, it was unbelieveable!
I had never run as many feet of pipe and did as many connections in such a short time, but then I was almost as quickly aggravated! LOL

I can tell you that it took redoing 2 of about 26 connections a few times each before those two didn't leak under full pressure anymore, but once I got 'em all done, it was all really great, but man, it was aggravating to keep on having to redo those same two lousy connections over and over.

Anyway, It all held up for me for about 13 years with no leaks, drips, bursts or corrosion anywhere, till I sold that house almost 4 years ago now.

The buyer had never heard of "Sharkbite" and was very impressed by how neat clean, new and modern everything looked, but he was somewhat skeptecal, until his house inspoector told him it was all done to code, was all good and was all relatively recently installed and how it's done nowadays and should last 50-100 years.
I haven't gotten any angry calls from the guy who bought my old house yet. lol

Sorry to say that I haven't used Pex-B yet, as that came along well after my retirement, so I can't give any comparisons, but I am currently in the middle of gutting and remodeling our horrid, ugly, old circa 1948 butchered up by the previous owner's bathroom that came with our new (old) house (with, thankfully, lot's and lot's of help from my youngest adult son) and bought everything I think I need in Pex-B to run all new hot and cold supply lines and valves to the shower, sink and toilet and will be installing the Pex-B once I get the new waste line in, new walls framed out and electrical roughed in.

I wen't with Pex-B once I learned that nobody is really sweating copper anymore, outside of boiler supply lines due to copper prices that have really skyrocketed and parts are getting harder to come by now and after I had heard some horror stories like yours about newer Pex-A stuff and also didn't want to have to redo a connection 5, 6, 10 times again.

After buying all the red for hot lines, blue for cold lines, shut off valves, sink valves, tee's, stub out's, the crimp rings, cutting tool, crimp ring tool and everything I think I will need to redo the bathroom, I didn't spend as much as Pex-A would've cost and nowhere near what copper would've cost and I shouldn't have to touch a metal pipe cutter, pipe threader, cutting or threading oils nor a propane torch or pipe wrech. lol

I'm hoping it all goes nice, easy and smooth, because so far, this entire bathroom remodeling project has been a pure nightmare!
Apparently the original bathroom here was damaged by a fire way back in 1948, the previous owner did the cheapest cover up and botched every aspect of this job.
Plumbing/heating/electrical/strucural/tiling we're all done incorrectly, improperly and not to code anywhere.

He passed away a few years ago and we bought from his son who listed the house for sale and of course claimed to not know anything about anything his old man did!
Some days I feel like suing the inspector I used! lol
 

JohnCT

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As an amateur, I've done about 75 PEX A expansion connections and never had a leak in any of them. I did use a powered expander which does a nice job of rotating the head with every expansion to make sure no leak channels are created. I also take scrupulous care of the heads to make sure there's no accidental burr put in the head.

John
 
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