Out of Plumb Flange

[PGB1]

Hello All!

I had to move the closet waste in a bathroom. When I put the new riser and long sweep ell, I made an error and the riser is 1/4" out-of-plumb, tilting left as one faces the user side of where the toilet will be. From the top of the long sweep ell to the flange is just under 6 inches, so there isnt enough height to put 22-1/2 offsets.

It's schedule 40 PVC pipe. Dry-fitting the closet flange shows the top to be about 1/4" from level because the pipe is at an angle.
Taking the tee off the stack and starting over will be terrible, as it goes into a multi-inlet fitting with other drains and vents.

The first question is will the wax ring be able to compensate for the out-of-plumb?

The horizontal distance to the stack is about 10", so getting a coupling in to turn the riser pipe plumb might be impossible. I can put a Fernco, but don't know if that is allowed.

Do you all know if either relying on the wax ring or using a Fernco will be an acceptable solution to my error?
Is there a better way to fix my mistake?

Thank You for helping,
Paul
PS: A sketch is attached. I apologize, but my camera is not working today, so no photos of my mistake could be taken.

 

[Reach4]

A shielded coupler is fine to axially rotate, if you have the space for that. A coupling to put 12 degree.

If that coupling is for in line, and you want to put a 3 degree jog in the pipe, I am not so sure of that. I think not.

If you are saying that the right side of the flange will sit 1/4 inch higher than the left, for sure if that is a metal ring, that should be no problem. There is a good chance it would even be OK with a plastic ring, but a closet flange with a stainless steel ring is preferred.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[PGB1]

Thank You Reach4 for your advice & time. I very much appreciate it.

I didn't explain too well & certainly didn't draw well at all:
If one were to look at the back of the elbow and view the vertical pipe rising through the floor, we see that the pipe is tilting to one side instead of being straight up. It's kind of like the minute hand on a clock pointing to 12:30 instead of 12:00.

I'll measure to find out if the horizontal pipe between the elbow and the stack is long enough to fit a shielded coupler. If not, your mention of a stainless steel ring flange will be the solution, leaving the vertical tilted.

In either case, I'll have a permanent reminder of my mistake every time I walk into my workshop and look up. Such is life!

Thanks Again For Helping!
Paul

 

[John Gayewski]

If you need to redo it a ram-bit would likley easily remove the pipe from the tee.

If you can fudge it then do that. 1/4" is tough to know how much flex you'll have. But I think you might just get it.

 

[Reach4]

12:30 instead of 12:00. is 15 degrees off. That would be a lot more tilted than what I had imagined.

So if cutting the horizontal, inserting a shielded coupling, such as Fernco 3005-33 3" PL, St. or XH CI to 3" PL, St. or XH CI or mission P-300 or Proflex P3005-33 can let you straighten that, then good. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Proflex...upling-Fittings-Connectors-P3005-33/100190328

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Thanks for the reminder about the Ram-Bit, John. Unfortunately, the mis-glued socket on the elbow is the horizontal end, so I can't get a Ram-Bit in without cutting the horizontal.

I picked up a P3005-33 at the supply house. I'll cut the horizontal and use it to rotate the mistake away. I mentally voided a glued coupling for fear of repeating my mistake.

12:30 instead of 12:00. is 15 degrees off. That would be a lot more tilted than what I had imagined.

When I mess up, I mess up big. (Actually it's about 5 degrees, but still enough to cause about 1/4" off-level flange.)

 

[Reach4]

https://www.fernco.com/sites/default/files/dimensional-drawings/pdf/3005-33.pdf has outside dimensions.

Note there is a stop, so there would be a bit of a gap. A saw kerf could be a good thing.


You want a square cut on that pipe. While I have not used one, a "cable saw" may be the tool of choice. https://www.homedepot.com/s/cable saw?NCNI-5

People often use liquid dish detergent as a lube to let the rubber slide better on the pipe.

Specified torque is 5 ft-lb (60 inch-pounds). You don't need a torque wrench, but it is possible to overtighten if you don't know that overtightening can break the clamp band.

 

[PGB1]

Thanks Reach4 for the tips on the shielded coupling. I have my old 60 inch-pound Ridgid torque wrench from the 1970's when I worked in the field, so that was helpful. (We only did cast iron and I used it with No-Hub couplings when it wasn't leaded bell-and-spigot.)

The cable saw is a good idea. But, cable saws & I sometimes get along and sometimes not so much.

Visibility access is poor, so I'm not 100% positive my cut is absolutely square. Installing the coupling and pushing around, I think the stop butts all around each pipe end. (Leak testing = no leaks.) Also, I'm not sure I was supposed to do this, but I reamed the edges of the pipe to a slight bevel inside to keep paper from hanging up.

I very much appreciate the help that you and John gave. It made the job easier and made me more confident.



I hesitate to impose, but I came up with another question:
I bought an over-the-pipe 3" flange with a stainless ring, but the floor hole size confused me. The flange's plastic part is wider at the top than on the rest of the collar.

For the plastic flanges, if I were to drill 4" the flange will sit on the floor.
If I drill 4" for the (preferred) steel ring flange, there is a gap of 1/8" from the stainless ring to the floor. I'd have to drill 5-1/8" to get the ring to meet the floor. A photo is attached.

Is this the usual, or do you guys drill 4" and leave the ring up a bit? If this is a question for which logic would dictate then answer, I apologize. The older I get, the more logic escapes me.

Thanks Again Guys For Bailing Me Out of My Mess!
Paul

 

[Reach4]

The ring should sit atop the finished floor. If you did want to leave the flange ring proud of the floor, you could put a spacer ring under the stainless steel ring. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Oatey-43412-1-4-Set-Rite-Spacer

If you did opt for a hole saw, I suspect it would have to be bigger than 4 inch. And it takes a special technique to use a hole saw where the center has already been cut out.

I think a rasp would let you enlarge the hole enough to clear the plastic, and not take all that long.

 

[PGB1]

Thanks Reach4 for explaining about the ring sitting above the floor. It's just something I noticed would happen if one were to drill the usual 4 or 4-1/8" hole. Cutting a hole large enough to clear the 5-1/8 part, the screws to the floor have barely anything left to bite into.

I guess these are designed to be installed before the finished floor is. Or, perhaps the plumber has to guess the finished floor height and cut the riser pipe below that level so that the flange can be set after the finished floor.

The whole thing seems goofy. Why not make the flange so that the plumber can send the flange to meet the existing finished floor? I never remember installing any flange like these, but most of what we did was leaded cast iron & not a lot of PVC. (1970's & early 80's)

We used to put the riser pipe tall. After the flooring people finished, we'd cut the riser off flush with the finished floor and set the flange. One can't do that with these flanges. (Nor with the plastic ones, as explained below)

The plastic Oatey ones that go over 3" pipe are strange, too. They have a stop ring in the collar to prevent that flange from meeting the finished floor either. In my case, I can turn the ring off in a machine lathe so the pipe goes deeper in the flange.

I wonder why it is impossible to buy a flange, stainless or plastic, and have it install to meet the finished floor if the riser is flush?


Paul
PS: I apologize for late reply. I stopped getting notifications from this forum when someone replies. Don't know how to fix that.

PPS: Two tricks to use a hole saw when a hole exists:
a) If the object is portable, a drill press will work. That's also helpful if you want to make round plugs without a pilot hole.
b) For a large object, such as a floor, screw a piece of wood or metal about 1/4" or thicker across the hole. It can be a
plate covering the entire old hole or a strip. If strip, the wider the better so it will guide the new saw better.
Screw strip twice on each side of the old hole so that when the new hole is cut, the now two strips won't rotate.
It will let you start with the pilot bit and, when the hole is through the scrap, the scrap halves will guide the
saw through the material that has the too small hole.
( Quick sketch attached)

 

[Reach4]

Having the pipe cut flush with the finished floor would work better with an outside flange, I think.

But maybe there are inside flanges that do not have a bevel that would prevent this. I have wondered if that is what the Oatey "Level Fit" name is about. I have looked, and not found an explanation for that term.

My Closet flange notes say : screw hole centers" 6.125 inches. OD 7 inches





Outside compression flanges, such as Code Blue, need even bigger clearances.

 

[Jeff H Young]

True about drilling an oversize hole . I always try to get backing under the ring screwing into chip board or plywood isnt as solid. I seldom use a hole saw use a fitting as a templet make pencil line circle on floor and use a saws all to cut the hole sure you can nail a pre drilled piece dow to floor to use to hole saw through over an exising hole thats smaller or you need to move hove a little .
Some flanges have bevel underneath as Reach said So Ill hold my saws all on an angle to facilitate the ring going down to the floor without makeing a hole you can drive car down just normal stuff but I dont get too fancy with theses holes.
The design of flanges arent the best my opinion but thats how the industry decided to make them having a good amount of wood to screw to or on concrete slabs being able to screw ring down isnt always easy