Nuclear plants in Japan risk meltdown

Discussion in 'Ian's Corner' started by Ian Gills, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    I'm getting a little bit worried about this.

    It seems the TPRs risk kicking in, releasing vapor, and the pressure is rising from inadequate coolant being pumped (because there is no power).

    Now I wouldn't buy a Japanese toilet (I own a Cadet 3) and I figure their nuclear reactors might not be much better. Why couldn't they have gone with installing the Bradfords instead, like we keep telling people?

    But, seriously, I hope they get this one under control else all of you West of the Rockies had best come stay with me!
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2011
  2. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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  4. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Good... I'm glad to hear you brits are on the way....

    We are already there waiting on you....

    That's 2 floating nuclear power plants...
    One there and one on the way...

    Plus a bunch of aircraft and medical facilities on board...
     
  5. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    They don't need an aircraft carrier or even two right now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2011
  6. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Well they don't need yours anyway judging by how long it took them to get to the Falkland Islands...

    We'll be waiting for your Fifty-nine search and rescue experts, four medics and two sniffer dogs.
     
  7. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    Well, your contribution to-date was coolant they did not need.

    [​IMG]

    They need search and rescue. Not military.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2011
  8. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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  9. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    Thanks for the lesson Redwood.

    But like I said, they don't need carriers right now.

    Just what are your boys doing on those boats right now?
     
  10. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    An aircraft carrier has surplus electrical capacity to power a small city. They have on board enough food to feed a hundred thousand people for a few days.....and the capability to deliver it where needed ASAP!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2011
  11. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Master Plumber

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    stupid threads like this one is why I have not wasted my time here any more..

    jokeing about this disaster and which country is doing
    the most for the survivors is simply crude and stupid..

    their will probably be well over 100k killed ..
    .

    and maybe if one or two of those nukes melt down we can have a
    jolly good time argueing over which nation makes the best body bags

    got to move on http://batterybackuppumps.com/
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2011
  12. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Like I said Ian "Reading Is Fundamental"
    If you had read what I posted you would have seen what our carriers had already accomplished....
    I put it in bold to aid your lagging comprehension....

    Please get someone to read it to you...
     
  13. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    It is a good point. The "Brilliant" Japanese that make those cars that most ignorant Americans bow down to like a golden goddess have built nuclear plants right on the fault line.

    AND they forgot to think about a little wave knocking out the auxiliary power.

    AND they forgot to simply put the aux power on the roof of the building.

    AND they forgot to build a huge GRAVITY feed cooling tank for ultimate back-up.

    Guess they were too busy making cars and toilets to export for PROFIT instead of upgrading their nuclear.

    Wanna know where they should have gotten their nuclear plants? They should have bought 50 of the American aircraft carrier nuclear plants and mounted them on some surplus toyota springs. Those little beauties can sway until they are almost upside down and jump around dodging floating Corolla's.

    And Ian, our bad gas lines look pretty harmless next to these poorly designed plants.

    Finally, whatever help we give needs to be repaid on a time and material basis. From auto export profits.

    This is NOT Haiti!

    But it looks like Japanese/Haitian plumbers designed the plants coolant system......

    https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?34301-Plumbing-in-Japan-is-bizzare-if-not-interesting!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2011
  14. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    You may find it interesting that us dumb Americans have also built atomic power plants in seismic active areas...
    Here in the US we have the San Onofre and Diablo Canyon Reactors with similar seismic exposure...

    We have also had more than a few accidents...
    Even those navy owned reactors have had a few...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2011
  15. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    From what I read, the scientists in Japan had under-estimated the size of the potential quake in this area. So now, we have to wonder if we have done the same vis-a-vis San Onofre. California, for geologic reasons, is not prone to local tidal waves...meaning even a big one is not likely to cause the kiind of wave seen in Japan. CA is exposed to waves from quakes in Japan, Alaska, etc.'

    I do not lose sleep over the whole thing, because in the end, Darwin will make it all work out.
     
  16. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    None are safe. My husband worked on one of the three back then in Taiwan, I think, after his death they added a fourth. They get some pretty fierce typhoons & earthquakes. He worked on Unit 1 & 2 in Shippingport and he had to quit because the rads he was getting was comparable to those my mom got getting rads for health reasons. I would shut off the lights to see who glowed more. I still wouldn't live near Three Mile Island for no money in this world. Depending on how the wind blows I would reckon, everyone is going to glow alittle from Japan's meltdown. And, it is going to be around a long, long time; and, cause alot of stomach problems.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
  17. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    And remember this is not a pot stirrer!.... And from his cousin:


    Diablo is not in the ring of fire, and its not in a position for backup power to be flooded [DUH! in japanese] And Diablo was stopped for 3 years for the most intensive seismic upgrades ever made.

    If you can make a power plant that operates on a ship in a typhoon, you can make the same model for use on land

    And if anyone had a brain 40 years ago, and I believe a few did, all the plants would operate in FAIL SAFE mode with passive cooling, irregardless of a power supply or a drunken operator.

    But then the pump makers would'nt have made much money on the plants construction.

    Funny how every city in America has a water tower up 100 feet in the air with a few hundred thousand gallons of water in it for relatively non-safety related issues. But the Japanese couldnt afford to put a few next to each reactor?

    HEY! Just in from Japanese news central: "We discova Dodge floor mat got stuck under the nuclear accelerator pedal!!" And "we no design-a the hokey pokey electronics! .... Amelican General Electric designer told us put genalator on beach!!! So we had to put old fuel lods ona roof, shaking building apart in earthquake - plobably cause by Amelican drill rigs in Alaska. "

    And all horseplay aside, no humans should face this three punch knockout they have suffered. If these plants melt down, japan will lose about half of its real estate. At least we have places to move people to.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
  18. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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  19. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    Take the pumps OUT and have a go at the game ! The reactor always wins.

    Think of todays nuclear power as every house on pumped sewage and septic.

    Gravity rules. Like a Tsunami.
     
  20. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    I feel bad for those people in Japan. So many are missing. I read an article where a woman was looking for her missing husband and it made me think so much of my life. So many people told me to just get over my husband's loss, to move on, like I could just go out and replace him. I was infact, treated badly. So many people just want to ignore you when something bad happens, and they want you to ignore it, too. But you can't. I feel bad for these people's suffering and I hope others will treat them much more kindly than I have been with my loss in life. They will suffer with PTSD, just like I do.
     
  21. nukeman

    nukeman Nuclear Engineer

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    ballvalve: there are some designs out there that are based on passive cooling. One design does use the "water tower" concept by placing a large tank of water above the core inside of the containment (reactor) building. Although gravity always works, there are challenges with this too. Remember that a plant during normal operation will be at 2200 psia or so (for PWR reactors)..the GE is a BWR and typically runs around 1000 psia. You get about 0.5 psi for every foot of head, so to be able to inject under high pressures, this water tower would have to be close to 0.5 - 1 mile high (not practical). The other issue is the amount of water needed. Not only do you need enough water to fill the reactor vessel to the top of the core, but you really need enough to flood the entire reactor building to the level. If there is a break in the piping, the water that you put in just goes back out and onto the floor. If your containment is intact, you just flood the thing to the top of the core level and go into "boiling pot" mode. This might require 500,000 to 1,000,000 gallons of water or more. The other issue is that this tower and piping would need to be "safety-grade" meaning that it could withstand earthquakes, tornados, huricanes, etc. The other issue is that the containment outer shell is the last line of defense with regards to a fission product barrier (I'm talking about typical PWR reactors here). This means that you don't want penetrations through this wall to the outside.

    In the current designs that use a water tank above the core for passive cooling, they need to get the system pressure down to were the head from the tank can overcome the system pressure in order to inject. They use 4 valves that are about 14" in diameter that pop open and release to the containment. If your containment has failed, then this would be released to the environment.

    These are the reasons why active systems are typically used.

    In the design of the reactors where this event is going on (BWRs), the building that was damaged is not designed to be a real barrier. The real containment barrier is inside the building. On typical PWR (usually plants where you see a dome), the outer wall is typically 4' thick concrete, heavy rebar, plus a steel liner. Some newer designs even use a double containment ( two shells, each 4' thick, with a gap between them).

    The other aspect to this is to what levels do you design to? Typically, we will look at historical information and design for the worst + additional margin. Now say you build somewhere that has never recorded a quake bigger than 2.0. What do you design for? Do you design for a 4.0...but then maybe a 5.0 will hit? Maybe you design for 8.0 and an 8.9 hits??? Each point you go up on the scale is 10x the magnitude, so building to withstand an 8.0/9.0 in an area that has never seen over 2.0 is not very practical. Nature typically doesn't give us an upper bound for disasters. All you can do is look at the historical information and do your best to design based on that information. There is always some chance that something will happen that is worst than anything ever recorded (like this event).
     

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