New (old) House pressure tank

[turq]

Hello My son and his wife just purchased an older house (1947) with a well and septic systems. I've spent years fixing my own house, but have no clue as to well or septic systems...I have been reading voraciously the last few days trying to get up to speed. As most young couples, their funds are limited especially after buying the house. They did order an inspection report from a well and septic company. It was quite expensive, but it left me with more questions than answers. The house has been vacant for over a year.

So here is what I know from the report and the well tag. It was drilled in 1991, to a depth of 160", 10gpm, static water level 30'. It is missing a well vent. it is estimated to be a 1/2 hp 5 gpm pump. It has a 42 gal pressure tank, 30-50 range. But the tank was reading o psi. There s no electrical disconnect to the pump. The ball valve, check valve and pressure gauge are all working. Pressure switch contacts are worn. It states there are no water filters installed. It states house plumbing is copper 1/2 and 3/4. Coliform is present, but no ecoli. The dissolved and precipitated iron numbers are high. The water is soft. Waiting for led results. They are recommending replacing tank, switch,tee, guage and shock treatment for $1700 plus. I will probably replace the tank myself, but am leery of the shock treatment and retesting of the well water part.
Sorry for the terrible pics, I am going to go back and try and get some more.

So should I test the tank? Or just plan on replacing it? Is a bigger tank 55 gal ok? Lowes has an AO Smith? Any brands recommended or to stay away from?

I have used Supply House before and they sell a tee set up that has everything I need. I plan on replacing all components. Would that be a good way to go? Or should I get individual parts, especially because I don't know where in that above set up I would have room for an assembled tee set up.

What about using pex or ? instead of the PVC?

You really can't see from the above pics, but there is two pvc lines coming in. One 90's up to the gauge and than to the tank. And one takes the low road, 90's up to a tee after the gauge. Any idea what this second pvc pipe is about? Maybe to an outside silcock or something?

In the report they say "No water filter present". Than what the heck is the above picture of?

There is discussion of ultra violet light to kill coliform. One of the inhabitants has some health issues. Should this be a consideration?

Would adding a switch to kill power to the pump something I should add to the to do list?

At the moment I plan to leave the shock treatment and vent pipe install to an expert, I think the quote was in the $450 range. Should I attempt it? or is leaving water quality something best left to experts?

You guys are great on here, sorry if this rambling, or I am not asking the right questions. Feel free to educate me as needed

Thank you!

 

[Reach4]

So should I test the tank? Or just plan on replacing it? Is a bigger tank 55 gal ok? Lowes has an AO Smith? Any brands recommended or to stay away from?

I am not a pro. I would stay away from Pentair Flotec because it has a bladder. The bladder is theoretically replaceable, but not cheap, and not easy to find. Diaphragms are better than bladders, and butyl bladders are better than a butyl+EPDM is better because the air diffuses slower through butyl rubber. Well-X-Trol is top quality, but is on backorder, as you probably noticed. I would go for the AO Smith from Lowes. It has a butyl diaphragm. My comment about the A O Smith is not based on experience. I have a friend with one, but it has not been used that much, so the fact that it has not failed doesn't mean much.

A tank tee has its advantages, but glued 1-1/4, as shown in your photo, is cheaper and plenty good I think. If you would be replacing tanks periodically, a 1-1/4 inch tank tee with union would be nice. A tank tee ensures that the input to the tank and the pressure switch are very close. But that 1-1/4 is good.

There should be a check valve in the pump and optionally one right above for redundancy. I would get rid of that above ground check valve, or take its poppet out to make it behave as a sleeve. That may have been done already. You can test to see if that check valve has its innards taken out already, and that is just being used as a manifold for the pressure switch and pressure gauge.

I would replace the pressure gauge, unless that lens is just dirty. Liquid filled is better, tho I don't have one myself. Some at SH are pretty reasonably priced.

There is a lot of stuff in your post, and I did not comment on everything.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my sanitizing writeup. I would sanitize after doing the well and plumbing work. My writeup is more intensive than what is typically done. It is more time-intensive than can economically done by somebody on the clock.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

Turq, you may want to consider equipping the system with a Cycle Stop Valve. A CSV will prevent the pump from cycling, reduce wear and provide constant pressure all while using a pressure tank as small as 4.5 gallons.

CSV offer the PK1A kit which may be comparable in cost to a large replacement pressure tank. The kit includes all components needed including CSV, 4.5 or 10-gallon pressure tank, pressure switch and wall mount brackets.

Forum Moderator Valveman is the developer and manufacturer of CSVs. The link below is to his company website, and the short video will explain how a CSV functions.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/

 

[Sarg]

Just a couple observations from another novice that's replaced his entire system recently.
The pressure tank appears to be reasonably new ...... perhaps replaced ?
First check to see what the "actual" setting are on the switch. Have someone use water and watch the pressure gauge to see if it does start at 30 psi and stops at 50 psi. They are adjustable and someone may have moved the settings.
Whatever the start psi is at ..... the pressure tank should be set at a couple psi lower i.e. 28 if the start is 30.
Shut the breaker off to the pump and switch and then turn on water to deplete the water in the tank ( about 10 gallons ) . When the gauge drops to zero use a tire pressure gauge on the schrader valve on the top of the tank. There is a chance the pressure just depleted over time .... or the bladder could be leaking. Get the pressure set and then monitor to see if the system holds pressure without cycling the pump.
You do not mention if the system is working OK or if it is constantly cycling which points to the setting on the tank being off or the tank being defective ( leaking bladder ). Replacing the switch .... the connection nipple ( they get clogged ) and the pressure gauge is very simple ... maybe 35 dollars.
My maladies included the check valve on the submersible leaking down which caused the system to cycle every half hour.... and as Reach4 mentioned ... there should only be one check valve and that's the one at the pump in the well.
Below is a picture of what I installed with a CSV included. Notice the switch I installed has a power shut off & start lever included ........ but the breaker shut off is all you really need.

 

[Sarg]

And just to add .... if I were in your position everything would be contingent on the pressure tank. If it holds pressure without the pump cycling without water being used .......... I would then shut the power off and inspect the contacts on the switch myself. ( Remember that a leaking check valve at the pump will also cause the system to cycle ) The inspection report stated they were "worn" ... but they missed the two obvious filters (?) They are in business to make money. And if the tank functions properly ( over time ... give it a few days ) you may only need to "refresh" the switch and pressure gauge. Everything wears out over time.
If the tank has become defective .......... then I would replace all the components so your son doesn't have to worry.
( I did not realize my pressure tank was bad until I removed it and heard water sloshing around in the top portion. )

 

[turq]

Thank you so much Gentleman. Just great information and pictures to digest.

We are still in the due diligence period, so I won't have access to the house again until Tuesday, closing on Thursday. we've already negotiated a fair deal, so at this point it's just fixing things. When we looked at the house, we just did a cursory walk through...the water works. I was completely relying on the inspectors to tell me what needed to be replaced. But no mention anywhere of short cycling, and at the time I didn't know enough to even look at that. All the well company spells out in their report is the pressure switch is working although worn, and the tank has 0 PSI. They say the gauge is working.

We've all decided that water is not an area where we should be "thrifty" about. So the mindset is to get it right now, and not worry about it for awhile.

Sarge,I agree the tank looks new, but it's not even listed anymore on Flotec's website. The previous owner passed away, so getting real information on anything is difficult. But I do know when some other work and permits were done, and that was about 15 years ago. With the condition of the switch, guage and the shut off valve, and the tank reading 0 psi I think we would all feel more comfortable just going with new. That way we know what we have, and no surprises shortly after moving in. BTW great job on your set up!

I really like the CSV, and am mentally going through my mind all the different plumbing scenarios using the PK1A kit. The pipes are haphazardly run down there anyway (that drives me crazy), so it might be a great time to clean that all up. I can do any kind of plumbing connection, but I am not so great at designing new configurations. So I'll have to decide if it's above my pay grade or not. To add to my confusion, I am really considering adding a UV light set up as well. There are some underlying health issues and I would rather be safe than sorry.

Again I can't thank you guys enough for helping me out!

 

[Reach4]

It may be the thing that I suspected to be a check valve is just a manifold. A check valve would have an arrow cast onto it, indicating the direction of flow. So a manifold would be good. The problem with the pressure tank seeing a pressure separated from the pressure tank input is the pressure switch can be tripped off early.

A positive coliform test is often due to sampling techniques. A deep well does not commonly have coliform coming from the aquifer. A sanitizing kills off the bacteria that can be there due to well work.

Sarge,I agree the tank looks new, but it's not even listed anymore on Flotec's website.

The Flotec pressure tanks are still widely available and AFAIK still being made.

the water works.

That doesn't seem totally compatible with the pressure tank pressure being at zero. Possible tho, if the sellers had added air to the pressure tank recently, even if the bladder was ruptured. Air gets absorbed into water. The bladder or diaphragm keeps the air separated. Air precharge is measured and set with the water pressure zero. It is possible that the air gauge did not press the pin on the Schrader valve in sufficiently.

A submersible pump put in in 2000 may last longer than one put in in 2021.

If you do get the pump pulled, I wonder what getting a pitless adapter would cost extra. The pitless protects against freezing, plus it makes sanitizing easier.

 

[Sarg]

I understand your point of view about "new" because that's essentially what I did.
New pump, new pressure tank with the associated components and new water heater. I was faced with equipment that had been in service for a few decades and a leaking check valve at the pump ............. all in November in the Northeast ...... so I just replaced it all hoping that other than yearly maintenance I would not have issues in my last decade.

 

[LLigetfa]

All the well company spells out in their report is the pressure switch is working although worn, and the tank has 0 PSI. They say the gauge is working.

Therein lies a contradiction. In theory, the system should not be working if the tank precharge is zero unless the tank was drained and now has air trapped outside the bladder. Of course, that would be short-lived as the air will quickly be dissolved into the water. Was a tank drawdown test performed?

 

[Bannerman]

Depends on what was defined by 'working'.

If the pump will operate and will deliver water, that may be considered 'working', even if the system is repeatedly cycling which it would do without sufficient air in the pressure tank. Perhaps by stating the tank was reading O psi, it might have been assumed the person to receive the inspection report will know what that will signify.

With regard to filters, perhaps the two filter housings are empty, with no filter cartridges actually installed.

Another possibility, because a 10" X 2.5" carbon cartridge contains insufficient media to be of much benefit for a point of entry application, the current filters may not satisfy the inspector's definition of 'filter'.

As previously stated, the check valve prior to the pressure tank should be removed (preferred) or disabled. An arrow is clearly shown on top, just prior to the pressure switch nipple location.

 

[LLigetfa]

As previously stated, the check valve prior to the pressure tank should be removed (preferred) or disabled.

I am not familiar with local codes but in some jurisdictions, it is actually illegal or perhaps required. Did the original report mention it? It might be easier to just remove the innards since it provides the two ports that connect the switch and the gauge.

 

[turq]

Reach.: I don't think I can get into the crawl space until Tuesday, but will definitely look closer at the check/manifold. Just so I understand you are saying that there should be a check valve at the well pump, and possibly just above, but not where it appears this one is located? RE: Flotec Sorry I meant this particular model-FP7110T-09 tank is not on their website. As for why the water works? Like I said I have never lived in a house with a well. I do know the faucets all worked and the dishwasher went through a cycle as well. And there has been no one living in the house for over a year. And thanks for the coliform information, this is going to take some more detective work on my part I'm afraid.

"I understand your point of view about "new" because that's essentially what I did."

Sarge yep exactly, thanks.

"Was a tank drawdown test performed?"

LLigetfa no they wanted more money for that. The bill was $770 for a well and septic report.

Edit: I was wrong about this. There is no mention of a tank drawdown test. What was mentioned was this "production of the well is perform a pump drawdown flow test." Which required additional money. They do recommend replacing the tank and the chlorination process...for a lot of money.

Bannerman

Thanks. I see your point about the filters, but if that was the case a little explanation would have been helpful.

Here are snippets from the report.

Pump short cycling? (a short cycling pump will greatly reduce pump life)
 No
Air charge in pressure tank: (low or high air charge may alter pump/tank life and
water pressure)
0.0 psi/low
Are there leaks on pressure tank/fittings?
 None found
Electrical disconnect at the tank/Functional? (used to turn off power to the well
pump)
 None found
Water line cut off at the tank/Functional? (used to turn off all the water to the house)
 Yes
 Functional
Is Check Valve in the well holding? (prevents water from rushing back into well from
house)
 Yes
Is the pressure gauge functional?
 Yes
Water filter installed on house? . . .type:
 No filter found
Treatment system on house?. . .type:
 No treatment equipment found
Is chlorine present in well pump system?(chlorine would cause water tests not to be
accurate)
 No chlorine present
Water clear or discolored?
 Clear
House vacant/Occupied: (a vacant house could affect test results and odors)
 Vacant

 

[LLigetfa]

"Was a tank drawdown test performed?"

LLigetfa no they wanted more money for that. The bill was $770 for a well and septic report.

Perhaps you confuse a well drawdown with a tank drawdown? A well drawdown test is understandably more expensive but a tank drawdown is quite trivial.

 

[turq]

Perhaps you confuse a well drawdown with a tank drawdown? A well drawdown test is understandably more expensive but a tank drawdown is quite trivial.

Good catch. I was wrong and edited my post a few minutes ago.

 

[Reach4]

A pump put in in 1999 may last longer than one put in in 2021.

Reach.: I don't think I can get into the crawl space until Tuesday, but will definitely look closer at the check/manifold. Just so I understand you are saying that there should be a check valve at the well pump, and possibly just above, but not where it appears this one is located?

Yes. That is the majority opinion. One safety advantage is that having no topside check valve keeps the pipes pressurized, so that a tiny leak cannot suck in contamination. Another is that a potential water hammer is avoided.

The potential upside of a topside check valve is that it can work around a leak in the piping. But that could allow a vacuum to develop.

To sanitize the well, I think you want to recirculate chlorine+vinegar treated water into the top of the casing, and wash down that area too. There may be an air vent port that would let you insert a tube/pipe in the hole after you pull the air vent. Some means of spraying the underside of the well seal would be desirable.

 

[Bannerman]

a little explanation would have been helpful.

Agree'd. Any inspection report should explain each comment.

If electrical power to the pump was shut off and the plumbing system drained to O psi, then performing a draw down test on a pressure tank that has 0 psi air precharge would be redundant. A more meaningful test would have been to add air to the tank's air chamber, and then recheck after 1-hr to determine if the same pressure continued to remain. If the air pressure was lower or not present, that would suggest the diapghram/bladder was defective, requiring tank replacement.

Suggest removing the galvanized octogon electrical connection box from the top of the well, and installing a PVC exterior weather tite box on the top of the electrical conduit. The weather tight box will not only provide a watertight connection point, but will also prevent further insect and ? from entering the electrical conduit. The weather tight box could incorporate a weather rated ON/OFF switch if desired.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/BELL-1-...1-2-in-or-3-4-in-Outlets-PSB37550GY/202284546

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Greenfi...-with-Single-Pole-Switch-Gray-KDL1P/202188640

Once box is removed from the well head, Hydromaxx or similar conduit and fittings may be utilized between the box and well head seal.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HYDROMA...Angle-Fittings-Included-4105012025K/312424933

The well head seal is currently not fully seated into the well casing.

Once the octogon box is removed, you will likely find another threaded port that is currently capped. A well vent will be usually installed into that port, but before installing a vent, that opening may be utilized for adding chlorine to shock the well.

When a large quantity of chlorine is to be added, often white vinegar will be first added to lower the pH of the water as the chlorine will increase the pH which will make the chlorine less effective. Others will provide details on how to shock a well.

Once the chlorine is added, the water and disinfectant solution maybe easily circulated by using the garden hose faucet at the well head to connect a short length of hose to feed back into the open port, to cause the pump to circulate the solution back into the well.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-S...ERCH=REC-_-searchViewed-_-NA-_-203990035-_-N&

https://www.aquascience.net/1-2-pvc-well-seal-air-vent

 

[turq]

AT this point I think trying to ascertain whether the tank is good or not is moot. I can test it, and find that it's ok, and still not trust it or the rest of the components. So I am almost positive I am going to go with the CSV PK1A kit. It has everything I need, and it checks all the boxes for a young couple moving into the house and avoiding short cycle issues. Now I just need to figure out the best way to install it. They are in no rush to move in, although I am kind of in a rush for them to move out of my house , so I do have some time to make it all work.

Bannerman and Reach great stuff and links on the chlorination process. I also really appreciate the tips about the conduit and vent and will put those projects on the top of the list. That galvanized box concerned me just looking at it. One quick question and perhaps it's self explanatory once I removed the electrical box, but the well vent you linked for is 5" long, how does that clear the box once I reinstall it?

The seal is currently not fully seated into the well casing.

From the report:
Does the grout seal on the well appear to be in-tact? (this seal is used to seal the
casing into the earth)
 Yes in-tact

Is the well seal properly installed? (contamination risk if there are open holes to the
well)
 Yes installed properly
 Missing well vent

Is this something I need to address as well?

EDIT: I see from the link it's a $16 part, so that's a no brainer I'll replace it.

And finally the UV water treatment. Thoughts?

 

[Bannerman]

Is this something I need to address as well?

The well head seal is currently not fully seated into the well casing.

To reseat the seal, only loosen the 4 nuts on the top of the seal. If you remove the nuts, the bolts are likely to drop into the well.

Link to an example of a well seal air vent.
https://www.aquascience.net/1-2-pvc-well-seal-air-vent

how does that clear the box once I reinstall it?

Do not reinstall an electrical box on the well seal. As explained, install the box on top of the ridged conduit. A Hydromaxx elbow will replace the box currently mounted on the well seal.

 

[turq]

Got it. The well seal is just something else wrong with that report. Now, thanks to you I know what to look for...and it's obvious.

 

[Bannerman]

You will not be able to easily replace the well seal as the drop pipe and pump will be suspended by the Tee that the garden hose faucet is threaded into, or suspended by another fitting below the Tee. To replace the well seal will require pulling up the pump, at least part way to place a clamp around the drop pipe to prevent dropping the pump to the bottom of the well while removing the fittings above the well seal.

While the exsisting garden hose faucet may be utilized to circulate the chlorine solution in a loop back into the well, when time to flush the chlorine from the well, suggest exchanging that valve with a larger diameter full port ball valve to maximize the flow rate from the pump so as to quickly eliminate the chlorine, sediment and debris from the well.