Need Packer Jet well info.

[Cottage Owner]

I have a 30+ year old, 45 foot deep, packer jet type well with a completely clogged point. It is my understanding there is a 1 1/4" point with a check valve dropped down the 2" casing pipe, with the foot valve, packer jet/leathers, and 1 1/4"pipe to the top/pump. As I have no way of removing the point I was wondering the possibility of driving it further down until it clears the casing so a new point could be installed on top of the old one. I am told we have yellow clay followed by blue clay, then sand. I have removed the packer jet and 44' of pipe and added pellets to dissolve the calcium on the point but the (assumed) check valve prevents this from working. Any help would be wonderful.

 

[LLigetfa]

I'm guessing that the packer broke off and is stuck in the well. It may not be close to the bottom of the casing and there may be mineral buildup under it preventing it from going down.

45 feet is not very far to go down and you should be able to washout drill a new well with new casing.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Cottage Owner]

Packer is not broken as I have had it out of the casing. Local well drillers will not drill 2" well due to codes. 45" has been fine for 30+ years as we are on a spring fed lake. Point is over 30 years old and I am certain it is the problem.

 

[LLigetfa]

So, there was more drop pipe after the packer and it separated from the packer? I think most often the packer would have only a footvalve hanging from it. Was there a checkvalve instead with a sand point?

Can you not just raise the packer a couple of feet with a new footvalve on it?

 

[LLigetfa]

So, there was more drop pipe after the packer and it separated from the packer? I think most often the packer would have only a footvalve hanging from it. Was there a checkvalve instead with a sand point?

Can you not just raise the packer a couple of feet with a new footvalve on it?

 

[Cottage Owner]

There is a 45" X 1 1/4" pipe connected to a packer jet with a foot valve. No more pipe after that. It is my understanding the point has a check valve on it or the prime would be lost. Point is ABSOLUTELY the problem being 30+ years old and only used slightly in summer. Most of my information is from having pulled the packer jet and from the man who originally drilled the well (professional). It is my feelings the old point could be driven below the casing, allowing for access to the water table, followed by the installation of a new point and check valve (dropped into the casing?) and then re-use the foot valve, packer, and 45' of pipe. I am interested to know if anyone has ever done this and if they had any success?

 

[LLigetfa]

If nothing separated from the packer and the packer has a footvalve, how was this "point" attached? Is it then attached to the end of the casing and if so, how do you plan to detach it and put in another one?

 

[Cottage Owner]

You make a valid point but it is my understanding the point was dropped into the casing. This is what I am trying to understand. As this is all below ground and I have little or no well experience I am trying to find out what is "Usual & Customary" in this type/age well.

 

[LLigetfa]

Of course there will be regional differences so who knows how they did things in your neck of the woods. In sandy soil, often a sand point or drive point is put on the end of 2" pipe and it's simply hammered into the ground. I doubt they could do that in hard clay. They could have drilled the hole first and then pushed down the casing with a drive point on the end of it or used screened casing on the end. They could also put down the pipe with nothing on the end.

Sometime wells were drilled using the washout method which didn't require a drill rig. My father and I put down more than a hundred feet of 2" pipe that way for his well. There was nothing on the end of his 2" pipe.

If the static water table came up high enough, they would often just put down a length of poly pipe with a footvalve on the end of it. If they needed to go deeper, they would use a packer with a footvalve. If they had a problem with sand they would put a 1 1/4 sand point on the end of the packer along with a checkvalve.

These days drillers may push down a screen inside the casing but I don't know if they would have done such a thing on 2" casing 30 years ago.

 

[Cottage Owner]

Thanks, that is getting closer to the point. Any way for me to determine is something is attached at the end of the 2" pipe? When the 1 1/4" pipe, packer jet, and foot valve are removed the 2" casing holds water and can be "topped off". I was lead to believe from the original well driller that the point was just dropped into the casing with a check valve attached but that does not make much sense. If there is a check valve between the casing and the point how would it be attached? It would seem a point would be attached with a coupling to the outside of the 2" pipe; not sure where the check valve would fit into that.

 

[LLigetfa]

Since there was a footvalve on the end of the packer, there would be no reason to install a checkvalve under it. If they did drop a sand point down the casing, it would have had to have a body with leathers like the packer has to seal to the side of the casing. I've never heard of such a thing.

My guess is that the well simply plugged up and it's time for a new well.

 

[Cottage Owner]

I'm sure you are right about needing a new well but they will not drill a 2" well any longer in our area. they need to be 4" or larger and deeper than mine with a cost of $4,500 - $6,000. This is just a summer home with one toilet, two sinks, and no shower so even a gallon a minute would work well. I have to try anything I can to try to get a few more years out of this one. Open for ANY suggestions!

 

[LLigetfa]

Lots of people still put in their own wells. Here is a tutorial. It does not cover wash drilling methods but it's a good read.

http://www.lifewater.ca/Section_1.htm

 

[Masterpumpman]

30 plus years ago drillers in some areas would wash a 2" glavanized pipe to the sand (water bearing), then go inside the 2" and wash below the 2" with 1" or 1-1/4". Then remove the 1" or 1-1/4" and drop a sand point in. The sand point had a lead packer on the top. The driller would then run the 1" or 1-1/4" pipe back in with a Swedge on the bottom. The swedge and drop pipe would swedge and seal the lead seal between the 1-1/4" and the 2" casing. There should not have been anything like a check valve in the well. Since you can fill the 2" with water and it stays full tells me that your sand point is completely plugged.
NOTE: Years ago when a sand point would plug, a driller or home owner would shoot a shotgun down the well. The consussion would many times unplug the screen making it usable for a time. This worked until the sand point eventually filled with buckshot from the gun shell.
VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: I don't recommend this! It's just information only. . . don't try this at home today ;^).

To my knowledge there was no check valve on the sand point. As Lligetfa said, some people used a check valve on the bottom of the sandpoint to wash the 2" and 1-1/4" sandpoint down. Once the well was in the check valve (called a WASH DOWN VALVE) on the bottom closed and wouldn't allow water or sand to come into the casing or sandpoint. These valves can be purchased today at http://atlanticscreen.thomasnet.com...-pressure-and-wash-down/wash-down-valves-pvc?

Licensed drillers today can't install shallow washed or driven wells because they are frowned upon by state regulators. However a homeowner doesn't have to be licensed and can usually do what he pleases. Washed and driven wells still work in some areas!

 

[Masterpumpman]

30 plus years ago drillers in some areas would wash a 2" glavanized pipe to the sand (water bearing), then go inside the 2" and wash below the 2" with 1" or 1-1/4". Then remove the 1" or 1-1/4" and drop a sand point in. The sand point had a lead packer on the top. The driller would then run the 1" or 1-1/4" pipe back in with a Swedge on the bottom. The swedge and drop pipe would swedge and seal the lead seal between the 1-1/4" and the 2" casing. There should not have been anything like a check valve in the well. Since you can fill the 2" with water and it stays full tells me that your sand point is completely plugged.
NOTE: Years ago when a sand point would plug, a driller or home owner would shoot a shotgun down the well. The consussion would many times unplug the screen making it usable for a time. This worked until the sand point eventually filled with buckshot from the gun shell.
VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: I don't recommend this! It's just information only. . . don't try this at home today ;^).

To my knowledge there was no check valve on the sand point. As Lligetfa said, some people used a check valve on the bottom of the sandpoint to wash the 2" and 1-1/4" sandpoint down. Once the well was in the check valve (called a WASH DOWN VALVE) on the bottom closed and wouldn't allow water or sand to come into the casing or sandpoint. These valves can be purchased today at http://atlanticscreen.thomasnet.com...-pressure-and-wash-down/wash-down-valves-pvc?

Licensed drillers today can't install shallow washed or driven wells because they are frowned upon by state regulators. However a homeowner doesn't have to be licensed and can usually do what he pleases. Washed and driven wells still work in some areas!

 

[LLigetfa]

I found the following article that mentions putting high pressure down the well to reverse flush the screen.

http://www.inspectapedia.com/water/DrivenPointWells.htm