Multistage Jet Pump for higher pressure?

[Scavenger]

I built a house on Lake Huron about four years ago. It's about a 12 foot drop from the pump to the water surface. I have a Berkeley Shallow Well Jet Pump which feeds two in-line sediment filters, then a UV-Light before entering the pressure tank. The pressure switch is set to come on at 30 PSI and off at 50 PSI. Anything beyond 50 PST takes too long to achieve. At the time of installation the plumber said my only two options for higher pressure were a submersible in the lake or a multistage jet pump. At no place in the house do I get water coming out of the faucet like I did when on city water (before moving to the lake). The low pressure (ie: volume) at the kitchen sink is the most irritating. I've thought about getting a multistage jet pump from time to time, but it wasn't until the other day that I read a newsletter talking about a "water pressure booster pump" that I started thinking about it again. This 'complete' booster pump had a multistage pump, a small pressure tank and some sort of controller. I assume this system would deliver the water at a much higher pressure as long as my system could feed it water, but the $1450 price tag scared me off. While 80 PSI water pressure would be a dream, I'd be happy with a 40-60, or 50-70 PSI system. For less money than the booster I figured I could buy a multistage pump. Does that make sense? Is it reasonable to expect a multistage pump to provide a much higher top-end pressure? Any other possible solutions? Thanks.

 

[LLigetfa]

I think there are more choices with a submersible than a multi-stage jet pump. You didn't mention the elevation from the lake to the house. You lose about 1 PSI for every 2 - 1/2 feet.

I too, dream about 80 PSI constant pressure but alas, with the micronizer for my iron filter, the dream eludes me. I have a 10 GPM submersible that is capable of delivering 80 PSI but not at 10 GPM, not 5 GPM either. In my case, I worry that my well wouldn't keep up with a higher GPM pump. In your case, you have an abundant supply.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Texas Wellman]

What HP is your shallow well jet pump? In my experience most shallow well .5 pumps max out about 50 or so psi. I know what the specs say but I just find that in real life they aren't quite as strong as advertised.

You could go with a higher HP jet pump like a Goulds which would definitely make more pressure. You could go with a multi-stage jet pump like the Goulds HSJ series which is the same as their SJ series but is designed to mount horizontally. Sta-Rite MSF is a 3 stage 1.5 HP but it only mounts vertical but puts out a good amount of pressure/water volume.

The best solution of all is to go with a submersible pump installed in a lake strainer. A submersible pump will do approximately 2x the volume of water that a similar 1-HP jet pump will achieve. The size of your pump depends on the elevation from your house to the lake (source).

I would stay away from boosters etc. It adds complication to your set-up. I would either do a higher h.p. jet or a sub, preferably the sub.

I built a house on Lake Huron about four years ago. It's about a 12 foot drop from the pump to the water surface. I have a Berkeley Shallow Well Jet Pump which feeds two in-line sediment filters, then a UV-Light before entering the pressure tank. The pressure switch is set to come on at 30 PSI and off at 50 PSI. Anything beyond 50 PST takes too long to achieve. At the time of installation the plumber said my only two options for higher pressure were a submersible in the lake or a multistage jet pump. At no place in the house do I get water coming out of the faucet like I did when on city water (before moving to the lake). The low pressure (ie: volume) at the kitchen sink is the most irritating. I've thought about getting a multistage jet pump from time to time, but it wasn't until the other day that I read a newsletter talking about a "water pressure booster pump" that I started thinking about it again. This 'complete' booster pump had a multistage pump, a small pressure tank and some sort of controller. I assume this system would deliver the water at a much higher pressure as long as my system could feed it water, but the $1450 price tag scared me off. While 80 PSI water pressure would be a dream, I'd be happy with a 40-60, or 50-70 PSI system. For less money than the booster I figured I could buy a multistage pump. Does that make sense? Is it reasonable to expect a multistage pump to provide a much higher top-end pressure? Any other possible solutions? Thanks.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Try taking the elements out of the sediment filters temporarily and see what you get.

 

[Scavenger]

Thanks for the replies.

The vertical drop from the house to the lake is about 12 feet. The line to the lake is 200 feet long. I'll have to check the HP of my current pump. I'll do that tonight when I get home. I realize I should have gone with a submersible right from the start. I was worried about how I could service a submersible if it's in 7 feet of water under 3 feet of ice. I guess I'd still worry about that. I don't know how much of an issue the diameter of the lake line is. I only have a 1" line, about 200' long. The problem with upgrading it is that the line is a Carapace heated line from heatline.com. The line and heating cable are surrounded by an outer layer which would be difficult to separate, and I paid alot for it at the time.

Tom Sawyer: It certainly pumps faster with new sediment filters. The pressure switch is located at the pressure tank, which is at the other side of the filters from the pump. Knowing that, would it still make a difference to remove the filters?

 

[Justwater]

so is the pump&tank at the house or at the lake?

 

[Scavenger]

Pump and tank are both at the house.

 

[Valveman]

You can get a multistage jet pump that will deliver 20 GPM at 60 PSI. The Goulds HSJ15N will work, and there are lots of higher pressure pumps to choose from. They also make a multistage that looks like a submersible pump with a jet pump motor. These will work but have less suction lift. Stay away from the variable speed or tankless controllers, unless you just like to have problems. You will lose 5 PSI in 200’ of 1” pipe at 10 GPM. So if you can run 50/70 on the pressure switch, you should have plenty of pressure at the house. You would need about an 80 gallon size pressure tank, and the pressure at the house will vary between 50 and 70. Or you can use a Cycle Stop Valve model CSV1Z with as small as a 4.4 gallon size tank. The CSV will give you 60 PSI constant pressure at the house. This way you will have better pressure from your own pump system than from city water.

[video=youtube;djYEdL6an5g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djYEdL6an5g[/video]

 

[Justwater]

if ur pump is cutting off at 50psi at the house, with no filters after the tank, and u have low pressure/volume.. I'm not sure 60-65psi will make much difference. sounds like u may have some other issues. when's the last time u took the aerators out of the sink faucets and made sure it was clean and open?

 

[LLigetfa]

The vertical drop from the house to the lake is about 12 feet. The line to the lake is 200 feet long.

I was picturing the pump down by the lake in a pumphouse, not up in the house, 200 feet away. I wonder if pumpman's calculation of losses on the 200 foot run is based on it being a suction line. 25 feet of verticle lift I have no issue wrapping my mind around but I lack the engineering background to be able to calculate what 200 feet of suction added to 12 feet of lift does to the current pump and what it would do to a multi-stage.

The 25 foot vertical lift is based on the pressure of atmosphere pushing and a vacuum pulling. Atmospheric pressure is somewhere around 15 PSI if memory serves me right. 12 feet of lift is half the total available, so 7.5 PSI of the atmosphere as a loss budget. Subtracting valveman's 5 PSI, leaves 2.5 PSI against a vacuum. I get the feeling the loss budget is being cut too close. A bigger multi-stage jet pump probably wouldn't fair much better based on my wild-assed-guess.

 

[Gary Slusser]

You really should move the cartridge filters and the UV light from in front of the pressure tank to the house side of the pressure tank.

All UV lights are flow controlled and you probably have an 8 gpm or slightly higher UV light.

Why 2 prefilters and what type and rating are they?

Any hardness in the water? UV and hardness does not work well.

Then with a jet pump 200' away from the water... I'd go a submersible and not worry about it quitting under the ice until it did.

 

[Justwater]

true he would do better with sub, true he should move the filtration, true he's a long shot from the water souce.... however..

he is still building and shutting off at 50 psi AT THE HOUSE.. with no filters between the tank and the house. he should at least notice plenty volume and descent pressure until the pressure drops and pump kicks on. i think something else is up. wonder if plumbing is too small, or aerators are clogged, or something else.

 

[Gary Slusser]

His problem is based on this: "At no place in the house do I get water coming out of the faucet like I did when on city water (before moving to the lake). The low pressure (ie: volume) at the kitchen sink is the most irritating.".

His UV light and filters can be harmed plumbed the way they are and he should correct that but...

He isn't going to get "city water like pressure" out of his jet pump lake set up unless he goes to a submersible pump.

 

[Justwater]

what about the low volume.

 

[LLigetfa]

what about the low volume.

Low pressure = low volume especially compared to the city home. Could very well be difference between the brand/model of faucet too.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah I didn’t know we were sucking from 200’. A sub would make a lot of difference because it is so much easier to push 200’ than draw from 200’. Also agree you should move the filters to the other side of the tank. Also agree that the filters or something else maybe restricting the flow. Cause even as hard as it is to draw from 200’, if your pump is building to 50 and shutting off, you should already have good pressure in the house.

 

[Scavenger]

The pump is a Berkeley 7HN 3/4 HP jet pump. It's followed by four stage sediment filter (75-50-25-10) and then radial carbon filter. Then we get to the Trojan E4 UV light (15 GPM), and the 44 gallon pressure tank. The water is not hard. The untreated water has a definite tinge to it (not the crystal clear water you get on Lake Superior). I replace the filters about every 3 months when the time to charge the pressure tank gets to be too long. The line from the tank to the manifold in 1" PEX. All lines from the manifold are 1/2" PEX with the exception of the line that feeds the master bath, which is 3/4" from manifold to the first drop.

I must admit I don't fully understand the CSV valve. It goes on the house side of the pressure tank, right? If I moved the filters/light to that side of the tank, where does the CSV go in that configuration, or does it matter? A 4.4 gallon tank was mentioned as a minimum - there's no problem with using the current 44 gallon one is there?

When the plumber put the filter and light on the pump side of the pressure tank it kinda made sense to me. I would expect the filters to have a negative impact on faucet pressure, degrading over time as the filter starts to plug. Hmmmm. From all the posts, it sounds like it should be on the other side.

All the faucets are Delta. The one in the kitchen has an aerator head that you can rotate to switch from regular to spray. If you continue to rotate it in one direction it continues to switch back and forth. I guess what I'm trying to say is it doesn't ever stop so I can't just unscrew the aerator like I'm use to on my other faucets. Anyone know how to remove the aerator in one of those?

Thanks again.

 

[Valveman]

That pump only builds 64 PSI, and you lose most of that drawing water from so far away. So it doesn't surprise me it has a hard time going over 50. Never use a self primer! They won't self prime against pressure like many people think they will, and the self primer part cost you a lot in pressure and flow. They only self prime when the pipe is empty or at 0 pressure. You can get a 1/2 or 3/4 regular get pump that will do 80 PSI, so 50/70 on the pressure switch would not be a problem.

A CSV will only keep the pressure constant instead of cycling on and off between 50 and 70. The CSV can't make more pressure than the pump can produce. But when you get a pump that can build some pressure, the CSV will help keep it steady. See this link for a graphic of how the CSV works. It works the same with jets or subs, just that subs can build more pressure.
www.cyclestopvalves.com

 

[Scavenger]

Side Note - Google is amazing. I post about my Berkeley 7HN pump at 9PM and a Google search for the same 13 hours later provides a link to the post. Gotta love technology.

I didn't know my pump was self priming. The 'expert' at the pump store recommended this pump as appropriate for the situation. Maybe he was over-stocked.

So, it might just be a pump issue? If that's the case, what pump would be the best in-place replacement (don't want to consider the expense or compliations of getting a submersible in place). Keep in mind the 200 foot, 1 inch suction line, over a 12 foot drop.

Any help on me previous question on getting at the aerator in my Delta kitchen faucet?

Thanks.

 

[WellWaterProducts]

I have had very good luck satisfying shallow well clients with the Goulds J5SH

Sometimes just changing the jet arrangement on a pump makes a world of performance difference. Most customers don't really need much more than 5 to 7 gpm in the home but appreciate higher operating pressures. Franklin also makes a shallow well jet pump that ships with 3 different venturi nozzles.