Michigan well replacement troubles

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Valveman

Cary Austin
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Water inside the house is good and any single faucet works with good pressure, but it goes away fast. Recovers soon. Pump seldom runs.

Any advice is welcome. Thanks for all your help!
What is the pressure on the gauge while all this is happening? Sounds like you have good pressure before the pump shuts off at 60 PSI, but the pressure "goes away" or gets lower as the tank is emptying to 40 PSI. If this is the case turn the large adjustment screw in the pressure switch 3 full turns to the right. That will make it a 50/70 switch instead of a 40/60. Then you should have better pressure. But without a CSV the pressure will always "go away" or get lower as the tank drains. With a CSV the pressure will stay up and strong because the CSV holds a strong constant pressure and doesn't let the pump shut off while you are using water.
 

Adolphus

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What is the pressure on the gauge while all this is happening? Sounds like you have good pressure before the pump shuts off at 60 PSI, but the pressure "goes away" or gets lower as the tank is emptying to 40 PSI. If this is the case turn the large adjustment screw in the pressure switch 3 full turns to the right. That will make it a 50/70 switch instead of a 40/60. Then you should have better pressure. But without a CSV the pressure will always "go away" or get lower as the tank drains. With a CSV the pressure will stay up and strong because the CSV holds a strong constant pressure and doesn't let the pump shut off while you are using water.
Alright, I just gave my wife an earful and she's gonna cough up the CSV125-3 60. Just saw you got free shipping in US. Done.
I'll get off my proverbial, depressurize the system and take a reading on an empty pressure tank. (to make sure bladder is not busted) back in a few.
 

Adolphus

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Sorry to cause problems with the wife! But she will be so happy with that constant 60 PSI from the CSV I will bet you get an apology. Lol!
Hey Cary,
Haha, no problem, I'm sure she'll be grateful when all this is finished. So the pressure tank is good, I found it at 37.5 with a depressurized system, pretty much what I left it as, when I replaced the pressure switch last year minus a little bit, because I've been testing it for water earlier. I will adjust to 50-70 and get the CSV installed. My choice is to have it inside in the basement, which anyway leaks due to high water table. Attaching two new photos of the indoor setup. Can you suggest which would be the best spot for now. I plan to redo all this with copper, over the next few years. Thanks for your help.
 

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Adolphus

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Well it goes here, but I couldn't find my cut out picture of the CSV125 so I used the CSV1A.
View attachment 84014
Ok, I understand where it goes. I'll check dimensions on the one I'm buying and see if I can move the top pipe away from the wall or I may be better off adding it when I start the update down here. Either way, thanks tons for the help!
Update, I set the pressure tank to 48 and it's now running from 52-72. My fixtures were plugged with rust and so was my sediment filter. I'm now watering my plants finally, and I took a shower at the same time. :D
 

Taylorjm

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Many people think that their tank is huge and way more than they need. I think most people are wrong. So you have what's considered to be a 30 gallon pressure tank, but I think it really only holds 11 gallons. That's not much. I just replaced mine that was the same size with an 86 gallon tank with a 23 gal drawdown. It really made a difference in the cycling of the pump.
 

Valveman

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Many people think that their tank is huge and way more than they need. I think most people are wrong. So you have what's considered to be a 30 gallon pressure tank, but I think it really only holds 11 gallons. That's not much. I just replaced mine that was the same size with an 86 gallon tank with a 23 gal drawdown. It really made a difference in the cycling of the pump.
A 30 gallon pressure tank only holds about 7-8 gallons of water. An 86 gallon tank only holds about 20-22 gallons of water. So, switching from a 30 gallon to a 86 gallon tank will make the pump run 3 times longer to fill the tank. But in most cases, like this one, even an 86 gallon size tank isn't large enough. The pump produces at least 25 GPM and the pump needs to run for a minimum of 1 minute, and 2 minutes is better to fill the tank. Two of those 86 gallon size tanks would be needed to have a decent life expectancy for the pump/motor.

You cannot install enough tanks to stop the cycling. The larger the tank the slower the cycles, but it still cycles. Longer cycles are better for the pump, but leave the user at low pressure for long periods of time. No matter the size, a pressure tanks only job is to limit the on/off cycles of the pump. When you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a small pressure tank is all that is needed.

The CSV will deliver strong constant pressure to the house, and the water goes right past the tank, not into it. Working with a smaller tank delivers this strong constant pressure much quicker than when using a large tank with a CSV, but either will work. However, as has been stated in many post here, since the CSV eliminates cycling, there are many advantages to a smaller pressure tank beside the obvious major difference in cost.
 

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A 30 gallon pressure tank only holds about 7-8 gallons of water. An 86 gallon tank only holds about 20-22 gallons of water. So, switching from a 30 gallon to a 86 gallon tank will make the pump run 3 times longer to fill the tank. But in most cases, like this one, even an 86 gallon size tank isn't large enough. The pump produces at least 25 GPM and the pump needs to run for a minimum of 1 minute, and 2 minutes is better to fill the tank. Two of those 86 gallon size tanks would be needed to have a decent life expectancy for the pump/motor.

You cannot install enough tanks to stop the cycling. The larger the tank the slower the cycles, but it still cycles. Longer cycles are better for the pump, but leave the user at low pressure for long periods of time. No matter the size, a pressure tanks only job is to limit the on/off cycles of the pump. When you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a small pressure tank is all that is needed.

The CSV will deliver strong constant pressure to the house, and the water goes right past the tank, not into it. Working with a smaller tank delivers this strong constant pressure much quicker than when using a large tank with a CSV, but either will work. However, as has been stated in many post here, since the CSV eliminates cycling, there are many advantages to a smaller pressure tank beside the obvious major difference in cost
When I thought my pressure tank was ruptured, the research I came upon made me almost throw up. The stagnant water and the contact with the material of the bladder, is crazy. Really a CSV is the way to go if you want constant pressure. I wish they made a 70#.
I have good pressure, my plants are getting watered and the laundry got done. Water was a bit rusty but I replaced the carbon filters and now it's perfect. fish like it, dogs like it. plants like it. I will buy the CSV next month and redo my installation downstairs a bit. For now, my wife's car threw the rear wheel bearing and today I'm hammering away.
Thank you so much all of you for your help! If it wasn't for this forum, I'd still be without water.
 

Taylorjm

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You cannot install enough tanks to stop the cycling. The larger the tank the slower the cycles, but it still cycles. Longer cycles are better for the pump, but leave the user at low pressure for long periods of time. No matter the size, a pressure tanks only job is to limit the on/off cycles of the pump. When you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a small pressure tank is all that is needed.

Well of course you can't install enough tanks to stop the cycling. The pump has to cycle at some point. Unfortunately, you can't convince me that it's better for a 25gpm pump to run constantly such as when there's only a 5gpm draw. That extra 20gpm has to go somewhere and the idea of restricting the flow of a 25gpm pump down to 5gpm or less, just doesn't make much sense to me.
 

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Well of course you can't install enough tanks to stop the cycling. The pump has to cycle at some point. Unfortunately, you can't convince me that it's better for a 25gpm pump to run constantly such as when there's only a 5gpm draw. That extra 20gpm has to go somewhere and the idea of restricting the flow of a 25gpm pump down to 5gpm or less, just doesn't make much sense to me.
I know right? But running continuously is still the very best thing you can do for that pump. It says so right on the side of the motor. "Duty_____Continuous". It is the cycling on and off that kills pump/motors. I have a 10 GPM pump that has been restricted to 3 GPM, (3 GPM well) and that pump has not shut off since I put it in in 1999. That would be 23 years of continuous duty so far, and I expect at least double that and just hope I am still alive to see it.

But no, the pump doesn't have to cycle at some point. Now it is not as efficient to run a 25 GPM pump at 5 GPM, but it is not as bad as you think either. Here is a curve on a 1HP, 25 GPM pump. As you can see at 25 GPM it is actually working in the service factor at 1.4HP. But at 5 GPM is is using less than half that much energy at .65HP.

It is really counter intuitive and blew my mind the first time I realized how it works. There are some really intelligent people who get red faced mad at me and tell me that is not possible. But you can't argue with the pump curve, as it is certified to show exactly what a pump will do. I laugh when people tell me "I am entitled to my opinion" and storm off. It is not subject to anyone's opinion, it is a matter of fact and printed right there on the pump curve.
25S10-7 curve.jpg
 
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Taylorjm

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I know right? But running continuously is still the very best thing you can do for that pump. It says so right on the side of the motor. "Duty_____Continuous". It is the cycling on and off that kills pump/motors. I have a 10 GPM pump that has been restricted to 3 GPM, (3 GPM well) and that pump has not shut off since I put it in in 1999. That would be 23 years of continuous duty so far, and I expect at least double that and just hope I am still alive to see it.

But no, the pump doesn't have to cycle at some point. Now it is not as efficient to run a 25 GPM pump at 5 GPM, but it is not as bad as you think either. Here is a curve on a 1HP, 25 GPM pump. As you can see at 25 GPM it is actually working in the service factor at 1.4HP. But at 5 GPM is is using less than half that much energy at .65HP.

Ok, but here's the pump curve direct from the franklin submersible well pump that many people use. This is for the 15gpm line. You can see that the typical 1/2hp pump, that many people use in their wells, has on operating range of 4gpm-20gpm with it's best efficiency range of 8-18gpm. The pumps aren't designed to run at 2-3gpm, and that's actually the high range of what a shower head would run at. So if your taking a shower, your pump isn't designed to be running at a restricted 3gpm, let along doing it constantly, but your saying that's ok? Even a 10gpm pump has an operating range of 3-13gpm, so it's not designed to be putting out 2-3gpm when a single faucet or shower is running either.

1655584462876.png
 

Valveman

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but your saying that's ok?

View attachment 84357

Yep! That is exactly what I am saying. Actually, it was a Franklin Engineer by the name of Joel Roach who explained it to me in 1991. The pump curve makes little difference, as it is actually the motor that is in need of a certain flow rate to stay cool. The pump doesn't make much heat. It is like trying to boil water with a blender, it would take a long time. The motor makes amps, which translate directly to heat. The minimum recommended flow rate to keep a motor cool is expressed in feet per second flow past the motor. The tighter fit the motor is in the casing or flow sleeve, the more the fps and the less flow rate needed to cool the motor. With a minimum of .25 fps needed, that would be a flow rate of 1.2 GPM when using a 3.5" diameter motor in 4" casing. However, the motor can still stay cool at a much lower flow rate.

As Joel explained to me all those years ago, when restricting the pump with a valve, the amps of the motor are also reduced. For instance, when you have a 9 amp, 1HP motor that is only drawing 6 amps because the flow is restricted, the motor is not making as much heat. This is called de-rating the motor load. A fully loaded motor needs 1.2 GPM to remain cool. But a de-rated motor can safely pump hot water without any damage, so it takes very little cool water to keep the motor happy.

After Joel explained this to me I conducted many test to determine than 0.2 GPM is a safe flow rate for pumps up to 2HP. That is why the minimum flow built into a CSV is 1.0 GPM, making sure there is 5 times the flow rate needed to properly cool a motor and pump. A continuous flow of 0.2 GPM will never damage a pump/motor. A continuous flow of 0.2 GPM is also by far better for the pump than any amount of cycling on and off.

What is needed in those Franklin curves is the efficiency or the HP at various flow rates so you can figure the amps and how much the pump is de-rating the motor. Some pumps will only reduce in amperage by 10% or so, while the same size pump in a different brand will drop motor amps by 50%-60%. It is all in how the impellers stack is designed. Look at Grundfos pumps as they are the only pump company proud enough of their 50-60% drop in amps to publish the Horsepower on the pump curve.

There is no flow rate that the owner can use that will hurt the pump when using a CSV. The CSV always allows ample flow to keep the pump/motor cool, no matter what you do with the faucets. But it was a hard concept for me to understand 30 years ago. I hope I have explained it as well as Joel explained it to me.
 

Taylorjm

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Yep! That is exactly what I am saying. Actually, it was a Franklin Engineer by the name of Joel Roach who explained it to me in 1991. The pump curve makes little difference, as it is actually the motor that is in need of a certain flow rate to stay cool. The pump doesn't make much heat. It is like trying to boil water with a blender, it would take a long time. The motor makes amps, which translate directly to heat. The minimum recommended flow rate to keep a motor cool is expressed in feet per second flow past the motor. The tighter fit the motor is in the casing or flow sleeve, the more the fps and the less flow rate needed to cool the motor. With a minimum of .25 fps needed, that would be a flow rate of 1.2 GPM when using a 3.5" diameter motor in 4" casing. However, the motor can still stay cool at a much lower flow rate.

As Joel explained to me all those years ago, when restricting the pump with a valve, the amps of the motor are also reduced. For instance, when you have a 9 amp, 1HP motor that is only drawing 6 amps because the flow is restricted, the motor is not making as much heat. This is called de-rating the motor load. A fully loaded motor needs 1.2 GPM to remain cool. But a de-rated motor can safely pump hot water without any damage, so it takes very little cool water to keep the motor happy.

After Joel explained this to me I conducted many test to determine than 0.2 GPM is a safe flow rate for pumps up to 2HP. That is why the minimum flow built into a CSV is 1.0 GPM, making sure there is 5 times the flow rate needed to properly cool a motor and pump. A continuous flow of 0.2 GPM will never damage a pump/motor. A continuous flow of 0.2 GPM is also by far better for the pump than any amount of cycling on and off.

What is needed in those Franklin curves is the efficiency or the HP at various flow rates so you can figure the amps and how much the pump is de-rating the motor. Some pumps will only reduce in amperage by 10% or so, while the same size pump in a different brand will drop motor amps by 50%-60%. It is all in how the impellers stack is designed. Look at Grundfos pumps as they are the only pump company proud enough of their 50-60% drop in amps to publish the Horsepower on the pump curve.

There is no flow rate that the owner can use that will hurt the pump when using a CSV. The CSV always allows ample flow to keep the pump/motor cool, no matter what you do with the faucets. But it was a hard concept for me to understand 30 years ago. I hope I have explained it as well as Joel explained it to me.
So your basing everything on information you received from someone, 30 years ago, instead of the current data that is posted directly from the manufacturer? Sounds like your picking and choosing your sources to fit your narrative.
 

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So your basing everything on information you received from someone, 30 years ago, instead of the current data that is posted directly from the manufacturer? Sounds like your picking and choosing your sources to fit your narrative.
Lol! I am basing everything on more than 50 years experience. The data from the manufacturers has not changed in all that time, as the laws of physics have not changed either. I have 30 years and millions of test cases proving what I learned all those years ago is still accurate. There is nothing better for your pump than a Cycle Stop Valve. You really don't want to take the "manufacturers" word for it, as they blacklisted the CSV in 1994 as a disruptive product. The quote was, "CSV's make pumps last longer and use smaller tanks, this company makes pumps and tanks, anyone who mentions a CSV will be fired immediately". So, listening to the manufacturers you will be stuck in a rut of regular pump and tank replacements over the years, which is what they like. The CSV will save you lots of money and from being out of water many times over the years, but your not obligated to do the smart thing. If you can't see all the benefits of a CSV, you will never know what you are missing anyway.
 

Taylorjm

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Lol! I am basing everything on more than 50 years experience. The data from the manufacturers has not changed in all that time, as the laws of physics have not changed either. I have 30 years and millions of test cases proving what I learned all those years ago is still accurate. There is nothing better for your pump than a Cycle Stop Valve. You really don't want to take the "manufacturers" word for it, as they blacklisted the CSV in 1994 as a disruptive product. The quote was, "CSV's make pumps last longer and use smaller tanks, this company makes pumps and tanks, anyone who mentions a CSV will be fired immediately". So, listening to the manufacturers you will be stuck in a rut of regular pump and tank replacements over the years, which is what they like. The CSV will save you lots of money and from being out of water many times over the years, but your not obligated to do the smart thing. If you can't see all the benefits of a CSV, you will never know what you are missing anyway.
I don't see a difference. You said the manufacturer doesn't want you to use a CSV, and it's because they are in the business of selling tanks and pumps. Then you said, don't listen to the manufacturer, buy my product instead because it's better. So who do we listen to? The company that manufactures and warranties the pumps? Or you, and install your product and invalidate the warranty? Yeah, you said you had millions of test cases, but I'm sure the manufacturer has many, many more than that. It's hard to take one person's word for it, when he's trying to sell a product, compared to the manufacturer's recommendations.
 

Valveman

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Everyone needs to educate themselves and make up their own mind. Trust in what big corporations spend millions advertising or that the government is here to help you is just crazy. But I must admit, I was once naïve like that as well. I always thought if you built a better mousetrap, people would beat a path to your door. But what I found out was that if you build a mousetrap that works so well it could make mice extinct, the industry will do everything they can to discredit you and put you out of business, as there is a LOT of money in mousetraps.

I was disillusioned like everyone else. I spent many years going to pump schools and manufacturers training trying to learn the best way to control and make pumps last. But when offered a cure for pump cancer, the pump manufacturers wanted nothing to do with it. People in the industry who had been my friends for years suddenly would no longer look me in the eye, return my calls, or explain to me what happened. It took me several years to find out the CSV had been blacklisted as a "disruptive product". I didn't even know what a "disruptive product" or "planned obsolescence" was. I would have never believed every product we purchase is designed to wear out in a predictable period of time. But it is! Now I know that people who believe big corporations make and advertise products that are the best for the consumer, are just as gullible as I was. Big corporations do what is best for their bottom line, which means sticking it to the consumer as much as possible.

My customers have already tried what the manufacturers recommend. They have tried big pressure tanks, variable speed pumps, and all the gizmos and gadgets advertised on the market. When they get tired being out of water and continually paying for all those gizmos that don't last long, they find me. After adding an inexpensive Cycle Stop Valve and realizing all their problems have gone away, most are angry that pump manufacturers lied to them and did not offer a solution that works. What manufacturers "recommend" is something that will last just past the warranty period on average. Tanks are sized, and pumps are made to last an average of 7 years, no more. While many lighted used pumps will last much longer, most pumps are cycled to death and don't last long, as the overall average is almost exactly 7 years.

Again, you are not obligated to take the advice of someone who has more experience than all manufacturers combined. If you don't want an inexpensive and simple little product that is guaranteed to make your pump last longer, you are on the right track. If you want to promote big businesses and big government, just keep your head in the sand and continue to do what they recommend. But if you want your pump to last forever and deliver strong constant pressure to the house, listen to the people who have one and get a Cycle Stop Valve for yourself.
 
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