Lost one phase of 200 amp service panel, power company says they are providing fully

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Ballvalve

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Lubrication of electrical contacts

In a dry toasty mechanical room, I doubt the need for the greases or lubes or compounded pastes. Except where you join copper and aluminum and aluminum and aluminum and to the cheap aluminum or galvanized buss bars in some panels now.

But just about anywhere else, the electricians here will tell you about the PILES of breakers that they had to cut the wires off of to get them out. CRC makes a few aerosol electrical connection sprays that one can quickly hit a whole set of breaker connections with, that leaves behind a anti oxidant coating and lube. Carry it around always, and especially in a well house, I cannot imagine working without it. Yard lights without lube in the nuts is just your guarantee of a future wire clip off, or arc-fault.

My owners manual does not tell me to lube the truck door hinges, battery terminal. hood latch, ignition switch, door locks, window mechanisms either. Also says the rear axle is "sealed for life" right! Put a magnet in one and a year later I had a huge porcupine. My excavator with the $9,000 hydraulic pump does not mention adding a magnet to the resevoir. My 300 pound pull high temp neodyium magnet had enough sub micron metal hair on it in one year, that I added it to the scrap bucket.

Manufacturers hate common sense, and those popular mechanic magazines from the 30's and 40's that taught those things.

A good mechanic doesn't wait for a bulletin from the NEC, or IEEC or CIA or OU_ATE ONE TOO "club" to know what needs to be done to prolong mechanical parts and safety.
 
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Rich B

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2.5K volts = 2500 Volts, not 2.5v. It is stepped up, not stepped down, right?


220 volts down to 2.5 volts Voltage is stepped DOWN not up......

Bare copper electrodes with 2500 volts might be a little dangerous in your hands....\


Welding voltage is generally around 20 volts for a mig welder. DC....

Stick and Tig machine have around 60-80 open circuit volts...means no load.

Welding is essentially a dead short across the output of the machine. The dead short melts your filler wire or electrode and the parent metal.....

You need to have something that would be relatively safe to handle.....

Plasma cutters and High Frequency starting in a tig welder are at about 3000 volts....Thats just a low amperage output though.
You get a pretty good sting form HF if your working on a metal bench and your skin touches the work but generally not enough amperage to hurt you.....A little water is usually around for that to happen....A wet rag used for cooling metal while your working and layting on the same bench.....and Zap.....
 

Rich B

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Thanks for the input Nukeman.

It is low voltage and Hi current to spot weld.

How they come up with the ratings has a lot to do with Duty Cycle.

On a system that is only AC in and AC out, once the Field Collapses in the Transformer it is a done deal.

that is one reason that I say "Theory only works in a vacuum"

You do have a very valid point.

Open Voltage measurements are not really valid, Because the Under Load Voltage and Current is what gives the "True" Capacity.


You are a smart man Don and correct....
 

JWelectric

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read carefully

Abstract
The paper presents a review of research data published during last 40-year period in the field of electrical contact lubrication. The paper examines the role of lubrication in corrosion protection as a barrier between contact surfaces and atmospheric pollutants. For effective long-term corrosion protection, it is important to properly choose and thoroughly qualify a lubrication product for a specific contact material and a specific combination of environmental variables. Another use of lubricants is to protect contacts from mechanical wear and/or friction, and from degradation due to fretting. Conversely, use of inappropriate lubricants may induce a significant risk by producing degradation, collecting participate matter, and developing a high electrical resistance of the contact surfaces. It is very important to carefully choose the lubricants to maintain a stable contact resistance and preserve the physical integrity of the contact surface. This paper also analyzes the effect of chemical composition and consistency (fluids, greases, solid lubricants) on the durability of lubricants in regards to various types of contact material, design and load.
 

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This problem came up last week ... snip ...

But honestly, i'm starting to get stumped with this problem.

thanks in advance,
dp

Thought i'd check in and update. Problem found, now waiting for repair. Turns out the underground wire from the meter is in conduit and has failed, water is entering it somehow, collecting and flowing into the waterproof box where the connections are btwn the underground and my service wire leading to my panel.
The underground service runs slightly downhill to my service wire connection, box, etc.
One leg of the underground wire has almost completely corroded through, it's been underwater for awhile i guess. I shut off the power at the meter box, and went to take a look at the connection, when i backed out the first screw in the cover, water started squirting out under pressure, removed the cover and the box and the conduit underground is full of water. Hence the corrosion of one leg almost through, and all the connections, etc.
Siphoned pumped about 6-8+ gallons, and inspected. What a freakin' mess. Called the electrician.

Underground wire is to be replaced, all connections in the box also. Neat and dry, problem solved ....
eventually.

In the meantime, i'm stuck here w/ NO power until the work is done.

You guys should all get out and have a beer or 2 together sometime, i'd join you if i could. Thanks for your help, advice, and it's been fun reading and learning.

take care, wish me luck in getting fully restored soon. It's getting colder here in the next few days, so life could be worse.

thanks again
dp
 

DonL

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Old School Welding

220 volts down to 2.5 volts Voltage is stepped DOWN not up......

Bare copper electrodes with 2500 volts might be a little dangerous in your hands....\


Welding voltage is generally around 20 volts for a mig welder. DC....

Stick and Tig machine have around 60-80 open circuit volts...means no load.

Welding is essentially a dead short across the output of the machine. The dead short melts your filler wire or electrode and the parent metal.....

You need to have something that would be relatively safe to handle.....

Plasma cutters and High Frequency starting in a tig welder are at about 3000 volts....Thats just a low amperage output though.
You get a pretty good sting form HF if your working on a metal bench and your skin touches the work but generally not enough amperage to hurt you.....A little water is usually around for that to happen....A wet rag used for cooling metal while your working and layting on the same bench.....and Zap.....



I remember that in the Old days it was not uncommon to have a set of Welding cables that connected to the 6 or 12 Volt battery of the old Farm Tractor. Worked great around the Farm for stick welding.

Also had a tire Pump that connected to the head, you removed a spark plug and connected it.

Now a days I guess that would be considered unsafe, But it worked in a pinch.


You can also Spot weld with a Big Capacitor. I have welded my Screwdriver to the Cap terminals many times. lol
 

DonL

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Thought i'd check in and update. Problem found, now waiting for repair. Turns out the underground wire from the meter is in conduit and has failed, water is entering it somehow, collecting and flowing into the waterproof box where the connections are btwn the underground and my service wire leading to my panel.
The underground service runs slightly downhill to my service wire connection, box, etc.
One leg of the underground wire has almost completely corroded through, it's been underwater for awhile i guess. I shut off the power at the meter box, and went to take a look at the connection, when i backed out the first screw in the cover, water started squirting out under pressure, removed the cover and the box and the conduit underground is full of water. Hence the corrosion of one leg almost through, and all the connections, etc.
Siphoned pumped about 6-8+ gallons, and inspected. What a freakin' mess. Called the electrician.

Underground wire is to be replaced, all connections in the box also. Neat and dry, problem solved ....
eventually.

In the meantime, i'm stuck here w/ NO power until the work is done.

You guys should all get out and have a beer or 2 together sometime, i'd join you if i could. Thanks for your help, advice, and it's been fun reading and learning.

take care, wish me luck in getting fully restored soon. It's getting colder here in the next few days, so life could be worse.

thanks again
dp


Thanks for the update DP, sounds like you have it under control.

Good Luck on your project.
 

Cacher_Chick

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It is normal for underground conduit to contain water from condensation alone.

It would be best to pull new wire from one end to the other with NO underground splices. The proper wire is rated for wet use and would be fine in conduit full of water.
 

Ballvalve

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If his box had a small drain hole, he would probably be fine. Or if the splice had been treated as if it was going down a well.
 

Ballvalve

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read carefully

Abstract
The paper presents a review of research data published during last 40-year period in the field of electrical contact lubrication. The paper examines the role of lubrication in corrosion protection as a barrier between contact surfaces and atmospheric pollutants. For effective long-term corrosion protection, it is important to properly choose and thoroughly qualify a lubrication product for a specific contact material and a specific combination of environmental variables. Another use of lubricants is to protect contacts from mechanical wear and/or friction, and from degradation due to fretting. Conversely, use of inappropriate lubricants may induce a significant risk by producing degradation, collecting participate matter, and developing a high electrical resistance of the contact surfaces. It is very important to carefully choose the lubricants to maintain a stable contact resistance and preserve the physical integrity of the contact surface. This paper also analyzes the effect of chemical composition and consistency (fluids, greases, solid lubricants) on the durability of lubricants in regards to various types of contact material, design and load.

Cetainly is critical to research and spec the correct lubricant. For any type of machine or assembly. If you own much machinery and repair many mechanical items, its a very large burden to make sure your workers use the correct material. The guy that puts gear oil in a hydraulic tank and transmission fluid in an engine can be your worst nightmare.
 

JWelectric

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The point in reading this carefully was to point out this was not about antioxidants but about lubricants.
 

JWelectric

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Lubricants are Antioxidants, but Antioxidants are not necessarily Lubricants.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubricant

So are you saying that axle grease or motor oil would work as an antioxidant on aluminum wires?

I am getting confused here. I have seen rigid metal conduit that was threaded using cutting oil that rusted after a year or two. Is that lubricant no good for oxidation?

I can’t help but wonder why the power companies throughout America don’t use antioxidants when they terminate in meter bases if this junk is supposed to be so good.

Here is a link to the data sheet for one brand name of this junk. Look closely at page one to see how little heat it takes to set this junk on fire, SECTION III - FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARD DATA. Look closely at page two and SECTION V - REACTIVITY DATA for more information concerning this junk and what some here believes is great stuff. Pay close attention to what it says about moisture.

There is a reason why I call this stuff junk. Can anyone figure out why?


In forty plus years I have never seen this junk used per the manufacturers instructions. Once the conductor is stripped of its insulation each strand must be separated and brushed using a wire brush that does not damage the strand and that strand completely coated with the junk all the way to the insulation. Then the strands have to be twisted to form the same circular mil as it was originally before being inserted into the terminal. The terminal does not need to have this junk applied for any reason.

What usually happens is the junk is squirted into the terminal and then the conductor installed which does nothing to protect the conductor. Proper torquing of the terminal if far more important than the use of this junk and again I refer to it a junk.
 
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Ballvalve

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Zinc powder is in your gold bond and other foot powders. How many times have your feet caught on fire? Did your gold bond powder come with a MDS? These sheets are LIABILITY controls, and have little basis for your conumdrum of junk.

Guess we hit a nerve in you here. JUNK? You tell us you are a teacher and then you call anti-oxidants junk?

You are flat out wrong about dissasembling a cable and sanding each strand, in fact, its just inflammatory and silly. The specs that I see are for the outer surface of the cable - aluminum- to be sanded or abraded and then the material [not axle grease, hair pomade, shampoo, moly grease, cutting oil or used motor oil] - a dedicated, electrical grease or anti-oxidant - be throughly incorporated into the outer strands, added to the terminal, and for me, carefully coated around the exterior of the assembly to exclude oxygen and add decades to the inevitable degredation of the terminal.

I am getting confused here. I have seen rigid metal conduit that was threaded using cutting oil that rusted after a year or two. Is that lubricant no good for oxidation?

Yes, you are very confused. Let me help you out. Thread cutting oil is fish based, and is, well, CUTTING oil. It is not labeled or intended to be a anti-oxidant, but a anti wear and chatter lube for the process of milling a thread on a pipe whose rusted threads bear no importance to electrical continuity. Its purpose is to reduce wear on threading dies.

I can’t help but wonder why the power companies throughout America don’t use antioxidants when they terminate in meter bases if this junk is supposed to be so good.

I did 4 major line extensions last year. One was underground, and the POCO used aluminum cable and the installer very much used an anti oxidant on his terminal connections. The others were overhead, outdoor pole drops, and I did the wiring to the meter socket. The inspector would not pass them without liberal coating of anti-ox on the aluminum drop wire from the weather head. If it was copper to copper, it was not required, but I would have used it also. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

You are correct about torque. A hydraulically crimped and shrink covered splice - such as on the weather head- will suffice. Meter sockets have matching metallic properties, and have very large connection forces, and perhaps may not thus require a lubricant or antioxidant [electrically speaking, most incorporate both qualities]
But frankly, I have not observed the meter being inserted, and perhaps an electrically rated grease is being used by the smart utilities.

What usually happens is the junk is squirted into the terminal and then the conductor installed which does nothing to protect the conductor

What this means is that electrical teachers are not doing their job in educating budding electricians. And electrician are not reading the can. And electricians want to get paid, and know that the homeowner is ignorant of good practice. And they want to get the job done and watch the football game. Kind of like that o-ring on the space shuttle.

The terminal does not need to have this junk applied for any reason.

The TERMINAL is why electricians have buckets of clipped off breakers. They rust. they corrode, the screws cannot be turned. Many are al on al - a guarantee of garbage in 3 years. How do your non anodized aluminum windows look after 5 years?

Finally, about your tourque. Are you aware that a big gorilla can tighten the nut on a 2 or 4/0 AL cable, to where his own nuts hurt, and the next day I can come in and give that same screw another EASY half turn? and a year later, I can give it another 3/4 turn. Metal flows, especially a cluster of soft small wires bound up in a nearly one size fits all terminal. Then it softens with heat from use, and your 'torque' is lost. that leaves space for oxidation, vibration, arcing and failure. The anti oxidant at least may fill the resultant spaces and reduce the chance for the oxidation portion.

I hope your class has a chapter on this reality.



Here is a very expensive test of connections exposed to hydrogen sulfide gas - copper, generally, that does your torque point justice on INTERIOR connections at the microscopic level.


Pay special attention to the conclusions of these tests of moisture exposed connections of all typical materials used in panels: Added resistance of 5 to 15% will rather disturb the original engineering of cable sizes... 10% was considered a failure.

http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/building/pdf/A6108.pdf

A mechanical or compression high current connection relies
on good asperity contact at the connection interface to maintain
a low contact resistance. Asperity contact is maintained by the
residual contact force on the connector, which is supplied by
the screw fitting in a mechanical connector, or the residual
stress in the deformed metal in a compression connector.
Under corrosive conditions, a poor connection may build up
insulating oxides in the spaces between the asperities and at the
edges of the asperities. High level, short duration current
bursts are applied to the samples for sufficient duration to
produce elevated temperatures at the asperity interface between
the connector and conductor. The intention is to produce
softening or melting of the asperities at the interface during the
test. In a connector which has a build up of oxides, softening
or melting at the asperities may cause loss of asperity contact if
the residual force on the connector is insufficient to re-establish
asperity contact with the oxide layer present. In an oxide free
connection, the residual force can actually improve asperity
contact when the asperities soften, resulting in a lower contact
resistance.
 
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JWelectric

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Zinc powder is in your gold bond and other foot powders. How many times have your feet caught on fire? Did your gold bond powder come with a MDS? These sheets are LIABILITY controls, and have little basis for your conumdrum of junk.
Your “m†should be an “n†or conundrum. How much current flows in your feet? Bad comparison

Guess we hit a nerve in you here. JUNK? You tell us you are a teacher and then you call anti-oxidants junk?
And do so proudly as I have UL as well as others to refer to instead of a bunch of unfounded web sites that are addressing unrelated issues.

You are flat out wrong about dissasembling a cable and sanding each strand, in fact, its just inflammatory and silly. The specs that I see are for the outer surface of the cable - aluminum- to be sanded or abraded and then the material [not axle grease, hair pomade, shampoo, moly grease, cutting oil or used motor oil] - a dedicated, electrical grease or anti-oxidant - be throughly incorporated into the outer strands, added to the terminal, and for me, carefully coated around the exterior of the assembly to exclude oxygen and add decades to the inevitable degredation of the terminal.
Really? Just how long have you been doing this type of work? I suppose you think that each strand does not oxide or get air to them during the stripping process. Now why was the reason you use this junk for?



Yes, you are very confused. Let me help you out. Thread cutting oil is fish based, and is, well, CUTTING oil. It is not labeled or intended to be a anti-oxidant, but a anti wear and chatter lube for the process of milling a thread on a pipe whose rusted threads bear no importance to electrical continuity. Its purpose is to reduce wear on threading dies.
what was it Don had to say?



I did 4 major line extensions last year. One was underground, and the POCO used aluminum cable and the installer very much used an anti oxidant on his terminal connections. The others were overhead, outdoor pole drops, and I did the wiring to the meter socket. The inspector would not pass them without liberal coating of anti-ox on the aluminum drop wire from the weather head. If it was copper to copper, it was not required, but I would have used it also. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
This goes to show how smart the inspector was. You even say that it was copper to copper and no antioxidant was required. What about all those screws?

You are correct about torque. A hydraulically crimped and shrink covered splice - such as on the weather head- will suffice. Meter sockets have matching metallic properties, and have very large connection forces, and perhaps may not thus require a lubricant or antioxidant [electrically speaking, most incorporate both qualities]
But frankly, I have not observed the meter being inserted, and perhaps an electrically rated grease is being used by the smart utilities.
This junk is used because it is smart or is it required?



What this means is that electrical teachers are not doing their job in educating budding electricians. And electrician are not reading the can. And electricians want to get paid, and know that the homeowner is ignorant of good practice. And they want to get the job done and watch the football game. Kind of like that o-ring on the space shuttle.
Or maybe it is just because it is not required and their inspectors are smarter than the one you had and knew it isn’t required either



The TERMINAL is why electricians have buckets of clipped off breakers. They rust. they corrode, the screws cannot be turned. Many are al on al - a guarantee of garbage in 3 years. How do your non anodized aluminum windows look after 5 years?
Well my service is over 10 years old and looks as good as the day I installed it. The aluminum conductors from the service to my two remote panels and those supplying my two heating units as well as the feeders going out to my two out buildings and range all look as good as the day they were installed. No antioxidant was used anywhere.

Finally, about your tourque. Are you aware that a big gorilla can tighten the nut on a 2 or 4/0 AL cable, to where his own nuts hurt, and the next day I can come in and give that same screw another EASY half turn? and a year later, I can give it another 3/4 turn. Metal flows, especially a cluster of soft small wires bound up in a nearly one size fits all terminal. Then it softens with heat from use, and your 'torque' is lost. that leaves space for oxidation, vibration, arcing and failure. The anti oxidant at least may fill the resultant spaces and reduce the chance for the oxidation portion.
Just for the fun of it I inserted my allen wrench into a couple of the terminals of my panel and they still had the required torque and wouldn’t accept any more.

I hope your class has a chapter on this reality.
Here is a very expensive test of connections exposed to hydrogen sulfide gas - copper, generally, that does your torque point justice on INTERIOR connections at the microscopic level.
As I said above all this is totally unrelated to the topic being discussed.

The bottom line for this discussion can be found in 110.14 of the NEC and UL White Book DVYM
 

DonL

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I Guess we need to order a few more cans...


Can_Of_Worms.jpg


And some more Vaseline for my battery terminals...
 

DonL

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I am getting confused here. I have seen rigid metal conduit that was threaded using cutting oil that rusted after a year or two. Is that lubricant no good for oxidation?

One reason that the conduit rusted is because when you cut the threads you also remove the Protective Zinc that is used in the Galvanizing process.

And they do make a Lubrication/Protection Compound for that very Application.

Lets not forget that the NEC and UL are Minimum Standards. There are better ways, but most people do not want the expense.

Just like using Aluminum wire when you could use Copper.
 

Ballvalve

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Lets make it as simple as this. Coating the connection point is imitating the insulation bonded to the wire. We would'nt run bare hot wires in conduit and seperate them with spacers. Putty, rubber tape, and scotch 33 on an in line splice serves the same purpose, exclusion of air and water.

I am amazed that electric panel design is still in the 1950's. Mine would be plastic, have breakers with flip tabs over the screw terminals, and main bus bars that have covers so that the stray screwdriver does not kill the serviceman so easily. all maiin screw terminals should have hinged covers, and be CLAMPS, not a circle that fits 6 wires and splays them out in many cases. The breakers would have preinjected lube of the right sort on the threads, and as i am seeing NOW, the tabs on the breakers would have a antioxidant preapplied. Cruise home depression and have a look.

That would add 30 cents to the MFG. and reduce the need for the electricity and death warnings. we have outlets now with holes that a kid cant get in [as the rest of the world has for 50 years] - why not in a panel?

I have a few european made large 3 phase machines, and their box with 40 or 50 relays are made in this way with little chance to catch a live contact. Its not rocket science.

Maintain asperity in connections, exclude most oxygen, and you maintain the intended amp flow capability.

Conumdurum is alway a conunmdrum. Or is it conundrum? Any way, I'll bet North Caroina aint gettin no grease on its wires!

But the poor but good electricians might boil down a possum, skim the fat and add some gold bond powder to make a good alox. Possumlox?
 
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JWelectric

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Lets not forget that the NEC and UL are Minimum Standards. There are better ways, but most people do not want the expense.

Just like using Aluminum wire when you could use Copper.
The NEC is a minimum safety standard but UL is not.
 

JWelectric

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Lets make it as simple as this. Coating the connection point is imitating the insulation bonded to the wire. We would'nt run bare hot wires in conduit and seperate them with spacers. Putty, rubber tape, and scotch 33 on an in line splice serves the same purpose, exclusion of air and water.?
Not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that using noalox on a bare wire is all that is needed to install this bare wire in metal conduit?
Are you saying that using a butt end connector or tape of some sort is okay inside any raceway?
 
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