Lost one phase of 200 amp service panel, power company says they are providing fully

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Ballvalve

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Dont do anything without NOALOX or other variations. It must be used on aluminum connections to anything, and certainly is good on copper also. Instructions actually want you to scrub it into the aluminum cable with some sandpaper.

Great on battery terminals also and maglite threads.

Hydraulic crimp or not, that joint should have had compound in it,on it and under the rubber tape or putty before the scotch 33 tape. Don't use old shower curtains from Taiwan for electrical tape. use scotch 33.
 
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LLigetfa

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If you are going to Quote me then please Include my complete sentence, Or go back to working on pumps...

The elipsis tells the reader that the line was redacted. It is my prerogative to quote a portion. The reader is free to review your post for the entire line.

IMHO, the voltage would be easy to read at the main breaker so it should be ruled out long before tearing apart the splices upstream. So, you would rather prove out the splice first and then verify the main breaker?
 

DonL

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The elipsis tells the reader that the line was redacted. It is my prerogative to quote a portion. The reader is free to review your post for the entire line.

IMHO, the voltage would be easy to read at the main breaker so it should be ruled out long before tearing apart the splices upstream. So, you would rather prove out the splice first and then verify the main breaker?

No I would not dig up my yard unless I knew someone did a piss poor job installing it.
And I would have tested the main Breaker First, and not expect my appliances to do the testing.

If I did it Myself I would have used the proper Scotch or other Product to make sure that it was not a issue.

Also I would have put it in conduit even if NEC code did not Required it.

The NEC rules are a MINIMUM standard and not always the best way to do things.
 

JWelectric

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Dont do anything without NOALOX or other variations. It must be used on aluminum connections to anything, .

From where are you getting your information? In a lot of cases this junk is not to be used. See terminal instructions before ever using this junk.
 

Rich B

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You can measure the Voltage Drop Across the Breaker and that will tell you if the breaker is bad. Or You can even feel heat coming from it.

Or measure the voltage from the out of the breaker to the Buss and that will tell you if it is a connection problem.

But it does need to have a load on it.

Measuring the input for 240 will tell that the input is bad, But not if it is good. Needs a load to test properly.


It could very well be on the input side. In that case Jim explained it very well.


I agree 100%.....and that is exactly how I would go about finding the problem. A heat gun can often point you to an area thats casuing the problem.....It's real simple.....Resistance produces heat...and the heat gun may help you find a faulty connection or component. BUT as Don said it would help if the circuits had a load placed on them......
 

Ballvalve

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From where are you getting your information? In a lot of cases this junk is not to be used. See terminal instructions before ever using this junk.

To call a 1 cent solution to a fire, arc, or lost phase, 'junk' without any known negative effects, seems a disservice to your death and electricity stickie. Show me a circuit breaker with an installation sheet on it and I'll show you a galvanized nipple with the same.

Maybe a polish up on physics class would help. And notice the no-lox or grease now PRE applied to many circuit breaker tabs, and the wire nuts with grease pre applied.


Rust on steel service panel components is by far the most common observation, occurring in 110 (10%) of the installations examined. [Table 2 above]

Rust on screw connectors on circuit breakers, and less often on fuse terminals, was also common, occurring in 97 cases, slightly less than 10% of the systems examined. In some cases corrosion was so severe that not only was the connection questionable, but the connector screws themselves were so corroded that the electrician had to cut the wire when preparing to install new breakers. When severe rust is present we report that the operation of the circuit breakers might be suspect.

Corrosion on neutral and grounding bus bars and connector screws was found in 42 cases. However field data indicates that bus-bar connector corrosion so severe as to offer visual suggestion that the connection is highly questionable is rare. Evidence of overheating (possibly related to corrosion) was seen in only two of these cases, detected as discolored copper wires at the connector.

Here is the link to this definitive thread testing thousands of panels:

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Electrical_Panel_Rust.php

Corrosion at the connection of service entrance cable to main breakers or fuse connectors was found in 46 cases. However this connection gives cause for greater concern, as it is not uncommon to see severe corrosion at this location when water is present. we have observed evidence of overheating such as burned insulation and discolored wire and in some instances partially melted aluminum wire at such connectors.

Steps to increase the corrosion resistance of entrance and breaker wire connections, bus bar connectors, screw terminals, might compensate for very common field conditions which continue to place this equipment at high risk of damage from moisture. St-Onge, addressing copper services, has made other suggestions for corrective measures, (11) and other studies have made more broad suggestions for design and installation improvements.(9) Improved materials are available and have been discussed in the literature by Breedis and Hauser.(10)

Effective corrosion resistance should be added to the present standards for qualification of electrical service equipment.

Sounds like the NEC missed this one. Bing gives 1,036 pages of corrosion issues in electrical connections, but I lack the time to post them all.
 
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DonL

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Nice

To call a 1 cent solution to a fire, arc, or lost phase, 'junk' without any known negative effects, seems a disservice to your death and electricity stickie. Show me a circuit breaker with an installation sheet on it and I'll show you a galvanized nipple with the same.

Maybe a polish up on physics class would help. And notice the no-lox or grease now PRE applied to many circuit breaker tabs, and the wire nuts with grease pre applied.




Sounds like the NEC missed this one. Bing gives 1,036 pages of corrosion issues in electrical connections, but I lack the time to post them all.



Very Nice...
 
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JWelectric

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To call a 1 cent solution to a fire, arc, or lost phase, 'junk' without any known negative effects, seems a disservice to your death and electricity stickie. Show me a circuit breaker with an installation sheet on it and I'll show you a galvanized nipple with the same.

I thought you might have something there for a minute then I clicked on those links and was disappointed.

Every electrical device manufactured today has installation instructions that come with them. Sometimes the electrical contractor might have to refer to the UL White Book to find these instructions but I promise they are there.

In those links I suppose if someone had coated the fittings with axle grease then they wouldn’t have rusted but who knows.

All those who are involved in the writing of the electrical codes have had many years of experience in the electrical field and know what they are talking about. They are not a bunch of folks who search the internet looking for unfounded information and using that as the basis for writing the codes.

NEC said:
Unless identified for use in the operating environment, no conductors or equipment shall be located in damp or wet locations; where exposed to gases, fumes, vapors, liquids, or other agents that have a deteriorating effect on the conductors or equipment; or where exposed to excessive temperatures.

The use of an antioxidant on electrical terminals must be called for by the manufacturer of the terminal and is not a choice of someone who has little or no experience in the electrical trade. There are several manufacturers of electrical equipment that expressly forbid the use of antioxidants on their equipment.
 

Rich B

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I took a look at a brand new hand held spot welder today. Brought to me by a local High School. The man who dropped it off said it did not work. It's a simple device.....220 volts into a heavy transformer. The transformer outputs 2.5 volts into a set of solid copper bars (tongs) with replaceable tips. The machine can output 4000 or more amps to heat 2 pieces of sheet metal and fuse them together. I powered it up and tested it....No weld....no heat..Went to check for the 2.5 volts Open Circuit.....Nothing at the tongs......Went to test it back where the tongs attach to the machine.....burned my Fluke probe in a heartbeat when I crossed the 2 output connections.....

Took the tongs off and removed the tips......The tongs were used....the machine was new...The heat generated had deteriorated the connection at the replaceable tips inside at the threads.......

To look at 1/2" diameter solid copper bars you would never suspect that they could fail to pass the current needed to make the weld.......They did........I told them to get new tongs as theirs were in poor shape where the tips screw in.....and not repairable

Bottom line is connections can be deceptively insulated..........
 
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DonL

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IEEE must be wrong

I thought you might have something there for a minute then I clicked on those links and was disappointed.

Every electrical device manufactured today has installation instructions that come with them. Sometimes the electrical contractor might have to refer to the UL White Book to find these instructions but I promise they are there.

In those links I suppose if someone had coated the fittings with axle grease then they wouldn’t have rusted but who knows.

All those who are involved in the writing of the electrical codes have had many years of experience in the electrical field and know what they are talking about. They are not a bunch of folks who search the internet looking for unfounded information and using that as the basis for writing the codes.



The use of an antioxidant on electrical terminals must be called for by the manufacturer of the terminal and is not a choice of someone who has little or no experience in the electrical trade. There are several manufacturers of electrical equipment that expressly forbid the use of antioxidants on their equipment.


Are you saying the IEEE is wrong ?

I thought they worked to help create the NEC.

They have been using antioxidants and recommend them for many applications.


I am so confused.
 

DonL

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I took a look at a brand new hand held spot welder today. Brought to me by a local High School. The man who dropped it off said it did not work. It's a simple device.....220 volts into a heavy transformer. The transformer outputs 2.5 volts into a set of solid copper bars (tongs) with replaceable tips. The machine can output 4000 or more amps to heat 2 pieces of sheet metal and fuse them together. I powered it up and tested it....No weld....no heat..Went to check for the 2.5 volts Open Circuit.....Nothing at the tongs......Went to test it back where the tongs attach to the machine.....burned my Fluke probe in a heartbeat when I crossed the 2 output connections.....

Took the tongs off and removed the tips......The tongs were used....the machine was new...The heat generated had deteriorated the connection at the replaceable tips inside at the threads.......

To look at 1/2" diameter solid copper bars you would never suspect that they could fail to pass the current needed to make the weld.......They did........I told them to get new tongs as theirs were in poor shape where the tips screw in.....and not repairable

Bottom line is connections can be deceptively insulated..........


A little resistance makes a big difference when you have 4000 working amps.

I bet that unit had a big bank of caps.
 

JWelectric

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Are you saying the IEEE is wrong ?

I thought they worked to help create the NEC.

They have been using antioxidants and recommend them for many applications.


I am so confused.

No but what I am saying is that you are trying to post a web site of improper electrical installations to prove your comment about antioxidants. The web site that quotes a report from IEEE says nothing about using antioxidants anywhere nor does it refer to the IEEE stating the use of this junk.

No matter how you feel nor your opinion there is no requirement to use antioxidant unless it is recommended by the terminal manufacturer. In some cases the manufacturer will clearly state to not use the junk in which case it is not to be used by anyone under any circumstance.
 

DonL

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No but what I am saying is that you are trying to post a web site of improper electrical installations to prove your comment about antioxidants. The web site that quotes a report from IEEE says nothing about using antioxidants anywhere nor does it refer to the IEEE stating the use of this junk.

No matter how you feel nor your opinion there is no requirement to use antioxidant unless it is recommended by the terminal manufacturer. In some cases the manufacturer will clearly state to not use the junk in which case it is not to be used by anyone under any circumstance.


You got me confused with someone else, I do not remember posting a website.

You can go to the IEEE website and check it out for yourself tho.

It may not be a requirement, but just a good practice in many applications.
 

Rich B

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A little resistance makes a big difference when you have 4000 working amps.

I bet that unit had a big bank of caps.


No cap banks Don.....AC output.....Just a transformer.....230 volts input squeezed down to 2.5 volts AC output.... Dead short across the tongs. It's like a big pair of pliers.......Grip the metal pieces and push the switch to on and wait a few seconds....The heat generated at the tips produces a spot weld. It also deteriorates the copper from repeated use.

One of these...The tongs are not in the picture. There are a number of different tong sets that can be used with it. Note the electrical output specs...
 
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Chad Schloss

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2.5K volts = 2500 Volts, not 2.5v. It is stepped up, not stepped down, right?
 
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DonL

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2.5K volts = 2500 Volts, not 2.5v. It is stepped up, not stepped down, right?

The Spec is 2.5 KVA

KILOVOLT AMPERES (kVA) = VOLTS x AMPERES / 1000

So it could very well be a 2.5V output, at 1000 amps, for a very short duration.
 

Nukeman

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The Spec is 2.5 KVA

KILOVOLT AMPERES (kVA) = VOLTS x AMPERES / 1000

So it could very well be a 2.5V output, at 1000 amps, for a very short duration.

I'm not sure on this one, but most arc type welders are stepped down in voltage (and up in current). I know this is the same, but I am unsure of the actual values.

For instance, a typical stick welder will have an output in the 40A-225A range, with typical steel welding done at around 90-100A. The output voltage is typically like 25v. If I had to guess, the 2.5kVA on this unit is 25v x 100A. However, one could count the windings, look up additional specs, or measure the output voltage to verify.
 

DonL

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I'm not sure on this one, but most arc type welders are stepped down in voltage (and up in current). I know this is the same, but I am unsure of the actual values.

For instance, a typical stick welder will have an output in the 40A-225A range, with typical steel welding done at around 90-100A. The output voltage is typically like 25v. If I had to guess, the 2.5kVA on this unit is 25v x 100A. However, one could count the windings, look up additional specs, or measure the output voltage to verify.


Thanks for the input Nukeman.

It is low voltage and Hi current to spot weld.

How they come up with the ratings has a lot to do with Duty Cycle.

On a system that is only AC in and AC out, once the Field Collapses in the Transformer it is a done deal.

that is one reason that I say "Theory only works in a vacuum"

You do have a very valid point.

Open Voltage measurements are not really valid, Because the Under Load Voltage and Current is what gives the "True" Capacity.
 
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