Lake Water System Setup

[AMFarms]

Hey all. My partner and I recently purchased an off grid property with a legal water license to pull water from the lake for domestic use. The property has a well that was drilled four years ago and produces approx 0.25 GPM.... hence why we are exploring the lake option first. The lake shore is approximately 1500ft to the property line, and an additional 300ft to the potential house site. Elevation gain is 50-60’ depending on where we end up putting the house. We will eventually have 2 small year round houses on the property. First we need to know if this is a feasible option, I have been unable to find anything online remotely close to our situation. Our thoughts are to throw a submersible pump in a 4” perforated pipe with appropriate screens in the lake, connected to 2”? 1 1/2”? pipe buried below the frost line, to either a holding tank or directly into a bladder tank. Is this the best option? All power will be solar or generator and have to run from the property, we can’t have any power sources at the lake shore. We understand a further filtration system will be needed as well. As the pump and piping in the lake will be weighted down to the bottom, how do you make repairs/maintenance accessible? All advice appreciated.

 

[Reach4]

As the pump and piping in the lake will be weighted down to the bottom, how do you make repairs/maintenance accessible?

Ideas:

How about putting a pitless on a 4 inch PVC pipe below the frost line? PVC would be vertical, I don't know how much depth you have to work with. I could also see the PVC pipe at an angle -- maybe 30 degrees from horizontal. Pull the pump when you want to work on it.

Probably would want a 1/2 HP pump of some sort.

I have not run numbers for the wire, but I wonder if it would be worthwhile to boost the voltage to around 600 volts, or 480 volts, and drop it to 230 at the lake with another transformer. That would reduce the current in the long wires.

Is your path free enough of rock that you can trench the pipe?

Instead of PVC, you probably would want SIDR polyethylene pipe.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

1.5 or 2" pipe is a good idea when going that far. I would use a 3/4HP, 10 GPM submersible in the lake. A 10S07-12 would be my first choice. A 10SQ07 would be more expensive, but has a soft start which might help with solar and batteries. Either would work with a PK1A kit to control the pump and deliver strong constant pressure to the house(s).

 

[Fitter30]

Heres a calculator for voltage drop and wire size
https://www.inchcalculator.com/voltage-drop-calculator/

 

[Water Pro]

not an electrician so I'm not sure of the electrical requirements, but for heating the well line, they make inline heaters. Not sure which brand is the best and they aren't cheap. company I worked for used one to go over 500 ft to the lake all above ground. here's an example of one. edit: pretty sure we used retro line

 

[LLigetfa]

I'm not sure of the electrical requirements

Should be easy to enough to get that info but being that the site is off-grid, it is likely not practical. Many off-grid lake water systems deploy a drain-back system to prevent freezing. Of course, energy consumed to move water is calculated per gallon so the larger the pipe, the more it will consume to let it all drain back. One would want to limit the cycles so filling a storage tank infrequently might be a good approach.

 

[Water Pro]

another option to consider. They make solar powered well pumps. they don't produce that many gpm but combined with a holding tank and a float it's a viable option, especially for an off grid scenario. I installed one in in a remote area with no power to provide cattle with drinking water. it comes with a hand pump as well.

 

[AMFarms]

Ideas:

How about putting a pitless on a 4 inch PVC pipe below the frost line? PVC would be vertical, I don't know how much depth you have to work with. I could also see the PVC pipe at an angle -- maybe 30 degrees from horizontal. Pull the pump when you want to work on it.

Is your path free enough of rock that you can trench the pipe?

I think I understand the concept of the pitiless adapter. Basically we could connect a buoy to the pump and pull it directly up from the pipe for R&M, while the rest of the piping remained in the lake? Unfortunately there are no depth charts available for this lake, we are completely guessing on how far out we would have to go and what depth we have. Our guess is it is 50' deep in the centre (its a small section connected to a larger, deeper lake). Our other concern with it is that it is used for ice fishing, I know the ice likely gets 2' deep so we will have to trench quite deep under the shore to avoid being in the ice. Path is free enough of rock to trench the rest of the pipe without issue. I would prefer not to run any heating wires along the pipe, just sounds like another thing to fix if we can avoid that by trenching deep enough?

 

[AMFarms]

another option to consider. They make solar powered well pumps. they don't produce that many gpm but combined with a holding tank and a float it's a viable option, especially for an off grid scenario. I installed one in in a remote area with no power to provide cattle with drinking water. it comes with a hand pump as well.

This is our next issue, whether we can pump directly into a pressure tank from that far away, or whether we are best with a storage tank and a secondary pump that brings that water into the pressure tank. The idea is to do this right the first time, we don't mind up front cost for a system that will work reliably. My worry with a holding tank is contamination, and a more complicated system with more moving parts that can break. I cannot see us being able to have the storage tank high enough to gravity feed the houses.

 

[AMFarms]

Should be easy to enough to get that info but being that the site is off-grid, it is likely not practical. Many off-grid lake water systems deploy a drain-back system to prevent freezing. Of course, energy consumed to move water is calculated per gallon so the larger the pipe, the more it will consume to let it all drain back. One would want to limit the cycles so filling a storage tank infrequently might be a good approach.

We have decent enough land we should be able to trench all pipe below the frost line. Would this eliminate the need for a drain-back system? As member water pro mentioned, heating an above ground line can be done but gets pricey from what I have seen.

 

[Reach4]

I think I understand the concept of the pitiless adapter. Basically we could connect a buoy to the pump and pull it directly up from the pipe for R&M, while the rest of the piping remained in the lake?

Normally you pull a pitless adapter by pulling on a threaded 1-inch NPT pipe. Gravity holds the movable part in place when you don't lift. You can remove the t-bar puller when not using it.

Wires go over the top. The 4 inch PVC is normally topped with a "well cap".

 

[Reach4]

We have decent enough land we should be able to trench all pipe below the frost line. Would this eliminate the need for a drain-back system?

Yes.

To be clear, you plan to power this with wires from the house, right?

 

[Water Pro]

This is our next issue, whether we can pump directly into a pressure tank from that far away, or whether we are best with a storage tank and a secondary pump that brings that water into the pressure tank. The idea is to do this right the first time, we don't mind up front cost for a system that will work reliably. My worry with a holding tank is contamination, and a more complicated system with more moving parts that can break. I cannot see us being able to have the storage tank high enough to gravity feed the houses.

I think I understand the concept of the pitiless adapter. Basically we could connect a buoy to the pump and pull it directly up from the pipe for R&M, while the rest of the piping remained in the lake? Unfortunately there are no depth charts available for this lake, we are completely guessing on how far out we would have to go and what depth we have. Our guess is it is 50' deep in the centre (its a small section connected to a larger, deeper lake). Our other concern with it is that it is used for ice fishing, I know the ice likely gets 2' deep so we will have to trench quite deep under the shore to avoid being in the ice. Path is free enough of rock to trench the rest of the pipe without issue. I would prefer not to run any heating wires along the pipe, just sounds like another thing to fix if we can avoid that by trenching deep enough?

you can't trench all the way to the into the lake, some line will be exposed before going into the lake. and a drain back system will have to drain back before it reaches the lake which will allow some water to remain in the pipe before reaching the lake as it can't drain back into a body of water.

 

[Water Pro]

This is our next issue, whether we can pump directly into a pressure tank from that far away, or whether we are best with a storage tank and a secondary pump that brings that water into the pressure tank. The idea is to do this right the first time, we don't mind up front cost for a system that will work reliably. My worry with a holding tank is contamination, and a more complicated system with more moving parts that can break. I cannot see us being able to have the storage tank high enough to gravity feed the houses.

you can push water very far with a properly sized submersible pump. a well can be over 600 ft and more. a jet pump, on the other hand, puIls air (like a syphon), and can only pull water up <25 ft. I was referring to using a solar pump in reference to utilizing the existing well on your property. it could pump into a holding tank, then re-pressurize using another pump (like a DAB pump) for re-pressurization.

 

[Water Pro]

i hate to say it, but your only real options (if system is used all year) are either using you existing well with a drain back. or using the lake for water while insulating and heating the well line.

 

[AMFarms]

I was referring to using a solar pump in reference to utilizing the existing well on your property. it could pump into a holding tank, then re-pressurize using another pump (like a DAB pump) for re-pressurization.

Ahh right. This is the other option we considered. The flow rate on the well is estimated at 0.25GPM. It was drilled April of 2016 and has sat since. This might be the less complicated of the two, we were just alarmed by the really low flow rate. But we do understand we could use a large holding tank, with some type of switch on the pump that kept it off for a certain amount of time allowing the well to replenish.

 

[Reach4]

you can't trench all the way to the into the lake, some line will be exposed before going into the lake.

Are you sure?

 

[AMFarms]

you can't trench all the way to the into the lake, some line will be exposed before going into the lake. and a drain back system will have to drain back before it reaches the lake which will allow some water to remain in the pipe before reaching the lake as it can't drain back into a body of water.

ok thank you! This was really what we were trying to figure out. I had read some people had managed year round lake water supply by trenching into the shore and somehow getting it out below the freeze line.

 

[AMFarms]

Are you sure?

this is our biggest unknown. I think we can. My partner thinks not. I may have to find a local resource on this.

 

[LLigetfa]

We have decent enough land we should be able to trench all pipe below the frost line. Would this eliminate the need for a drain-back system?

Yes.