Kitchen Sink Gurgle

[heybeats]

Folks,
I'm currently located in Virginia. I'm at my uncle's house and any time someone goes to use the kitchen sink, the left sink gurgles. Water drains fine. I can see the bubble. Even if I am sitting nearby and the sink hasn't been used, it will gulg every now and then.

Backstory
I have already removed both p traps and nothing clogged. There is water in both p traps after draining. The dishwasher isn't being used and hasn't been used in a long time.

I already used Glug drain opener in the left sink only. No change

I filled the sink with water and let it drain, it drains fine and then glugs at the end and I can see the bubble via sink drain opening.

The showers, sinks and toilet upstairs drain fine and no gurgle. There is a bathroom and sink downstairs but they have AAV installed as it was put in recently. So it's not tied into the house vent stack.

I haven't snaked anything yet.

My uncle replaced the garburator a few years ago. The entire family cannot tell me if this happened before the garburator replacement or after. Everyone except me has ignored it. I was told that this didn't happen before.

The thing I noticed is that there are two p traps and merges together. I'm not sure if in VA two p traps are needed. I feel like I can get a new dishwasher kit and redo the plumbing and only have 1 p trap. However, I'm not 100% sure If that will fix the problem or not.

Does anyone have recommendations so I don't lose my sanity?
- eliminate 1 p trap?
- snake drain?
- snake roof vent?
- anything else?

Attached are pictures of the sink drain, kitchen and roof vents.

 

[Jeff H Young]

The rough in is pretty high , yes one trap to a trap arm to my way UPC way of of plumbing yours might allow it.
Besides the bubble you can run sink full blast for an extended length of time several minutes and no back up ? how about the trap arm its clear?
usually the bubbling is caused by a stoppage or slow drain

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WorthFlorida]

The problem is not be the trap setup, more likely as Jeff suggest, blockage further down the line and possibly a vent is blocked. The left sink gurgles because the disposal absorbs the sound. A single trap will not changed anything. The outside picture shows two roof vents on the left and right side of the home but it's not sure if there is a roof vent on the gable of the kitchen. You'll need to look in the attic and see if there is a pipe from the kitchen wall tied to either one of the others or it does go straight up to the roof. The pipe will run up the wall where the corner cabinet is and I suspect it's it tied the the one on the left. The thickness of that wall more likely has the main stack from the second floor, a bathroom I assume.

 

[heybeats]

The problem is not be the trap setup, more likely as Jeff suggest, blockage further down the line and possibly a vent is blocked. The left sink gurgles because the disposal absorbs the sound. A single trap will not changed anything. The outside picture shows two roof vents on the left and right side of the home but it's not sure if there is a roof vent on the gable of the kitchen. You'll need to look in the attic and see if there is a pipe from the kitchen wall tied to either one of the others or it does go straight up to the roof. The pipe will run up the wall where the corner cabinet is and I suspect it's it tied the the one on the left. The thickness of that wall more likely has the main stack from the second floor, a bathroom I assume.

Ok so, I haven't ran the water full blast yet continuously. I flooded it and watched it drain and gurgle a couple of times. It drains fine. I forgot to mention there is a sink and a toilet on that main floor as well. No issues. It's on the other side of the room so I'm assuming it's tied to the right vent stack.

There's only 2 vent stack on this roof. So does the rest of the identical homes.

So you reckon I could have a partial blockage on the left vent stack - if it ties into it? If that's the case, wouldn't I expect to have issues with the bathrooms, showers and toilet on the top floor? Because there are two bathrooms opposite of the house.

Additional piece of information now that I think about it:
My cousin has complained that her bathroom (would be on the left side of the house), they have a double sink (each has its own p trap) one of them drains a little slow. Now I haven't noticed it backing up or being s problem for me - mostly because the water flow from the fixture is low (they have a Moen and I think I need to change the aerator because I took it out before and it was clean). I did notice the shower drains slowish especially If I use the bidet and shoot water to clean the shower and I get to go flood up because of the amount of water coming out. I thought it's maybe because these guys shed their hair to fall down the drain. I wouldn't be surprised if they do it over the sink as well - annoying.

Would it be better if I get on the roof and try to snake it the vent stack? Or should I remove the clean outs and try to snake it from there?

Last time I rented a snake from home Depot, If I had a shorter snake then I could do 1.5" pipe and it would get the bends. The longer snake wouldn't work well with 1.5" pipe because it won't be able to maneuver through the bends because it's a thicker snake.

I'm just trying to see what I should try first. I can check the attic out as well and see where things connect.

 

[heybeats]

The rough in is pretty high , yes one trap to a trap arm to my way UPC way of of plumbing yours might allow it.
Besides the bubble you can run sink full blast for an extended length of time several minutes and no back up ? how about the trap arm its clear?
usually the bubbling is caused by a stoppage or slow drain

I just responded to WorthFlorida.

I did flood the left sink and let it drain and no issues. It does gurgle a couple of times while draining. I haven't really ran it continuously for several minutes but I have ran it and it seems to keep up with draining.

The trap arms are clear.

I added some additional notes in my reply. Let me know if that could be related. However, only my cousin complained about the sink and I complain about the shower. regular shower is fine because these guys have low flow fixtures installed.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/kitchen-sink-gurgle.104454/post-746429

 

[WorthFlorida]

A blocked vent is only one possibility. It is something to check. There is a lower level and if you're on city sewer, there should be a clean out. To check for blockage makes it easier. Is there a septic tank and not on city sewer?

The shower and sink slow drain is most likely hair and not related to the gurgling. The sink stopper is plugged up with hair and soap scum, I have to clean my wife's sink at least once a year and you're right about the shower drain. Hair especially those with long hair will plug up a drain in a short time.

 

[heybeats]

A blocked vent is only one possibility. It is something to check. There is a lower level and if you're on city sewer, there should be a clean out. To check for blockage makes it easier. Is there a septic tank and not on city sewer?

The shower and sink slow drain is most likely hair and not related to the gurgling. The sink stopper is plugged up with hair and soap scum, I have to clean my wife's sink at least once a year and you're right about the shower drain. Hair especially those with long hair will plug up a drain in a short time.

I think it's on city sewer. These guys are in the suburbs. House is about 20 years old. I went to the basement which is below ground and there's a 1.5" pipe coming across and going straight down below that manhole cover. Inside of that there's a sump pump. There's another 1.5" pipe that goes across but I don't know where that is going I think it might have to do something with the toilet and/or sink drain on the main floor.

In the basement they added a bathroom after the house was built. All I know is both the sinks have AAV installed. Now there is a clean out maybe a 3 or 4" pipe. All on the same side of the that the kitchen is.

This 1.5" pipe is kind of weird don't they usually tie into the main drain? This one goes straight down to earth. I haven't taken off the cover off yet.

Im trying to see where the best place is to start. If I had issues with the kitchen sink gurgling and I got other fixtures on the same vent, is there a test I can perform to determine if it's a vent or drain issue? Like flush toilet and see if sink acts up etc. Because If it was a vent issue, wouldn't the fixtures on the top floor have problems too?

 

[WorthFlorida]

The sump is for ground water that seeps into the pit usually by a tile drain around the foundation. The water is discharged directly outside. If the sump was sealed and used for a washing machine, etc. it would then be connected to the sewer.

PVC pipe rarely clogs up but it can happen. Being a two story home, water maybe backing up and then gravity wins, the pipe drains and it's probably when you hear the gurgling. It's s all conjecture on my part. Not being there we can only go by from your comments.

 

[heybeats]

Thank you for your valuable input.

I went to the basement and I was able to locate the kitchen drain pipe. I noticed that on the horizontal run it doesn't slope properly (sloping back towards the kitchen sink). I measured it, the pipe closer to the kitchen is 7 3/8" from the top, then it goes to 7" which means the water isn't running down to connect to the main drain. There's also a 90 so I'm not sure wtf is going on. I noticed the purple on this pipe, but on the other ones it was some sort of yellowish. Which leads me to believe this section of the pipe was possibly messed with - maybe or maybe not but the 3" drain has purple.

Anyways, should I cut the sanitee (I believe that's what this one is) off, eliminate the 90. Install a new sanitee and tilt it so that I don't need to use a 90? I think I should have enough play so that on the horizontal run from the drain will slope correctly.

If the current setup is wrong, that could be a possibility that there's air trapped and it gurgles?

 

[Jeff H Young]

fill both sinks full and they drain fast right? just curious you mentioned last time you rented a snake ?
I gotta tell you that if the concept that pvc rare clogs we would have litteraly millions of unemployed "Drain Techs".
Oh hell yea back fall in basement causes gurgling especialy if that kitchen sink uses an AAV instead of a VENT as an AAV is not a vent.
Stoppages are a big factor in gurgling and when poor workmanship is factored in its about 99 percent of cases almost Never is the cause a plugged vent yea ok 1 in a 100. Youve got a bad plumbing job there. what the heck is that san tee on its back for ? a vent or a drain?

 

[heybeats]

fill both sinks full and they drain fast right? just curious you mentioned last time you rented a snake ?
I gotta tell you that if the concept that pvc rare clogs we would have litteraly millions of unemployed "Drain Techs".
Oh hell yea back fall in basement causes gurgling especialy if that kitchen sink uses an AAV instead of a VENT as an AAV is not a vent.
Stoppages are a big factor in gurgling and when poor workmanship is factored in its about 99 percent of cases almost Never is the cause a plugged vent yea ok 1 in a 100. Youve got a bad plumbing job there. what the heck is that san tee on its back for ? a vent or a drain?

I did not rent a snake yet. I just used Glug drain opener and blasted it through the left sink only to see if that would kick out any blockages ( I used Talon in Canada before and it worked like a charm).

I had both sinks filled before and I would drain them and water would drain fairly quickly and a few glugs here and there. I ran a decent amount of water and it's fine. Just when it stops draining it glugs away.

Just to clarify, the main floor kitchen that is problematic does NOT use an AAV (I think it's tied into the vent stack on the roof - I still need to run up the attic to double check). It's only the sink and bathroom in the basement because they finished it after the house was built.

So the water drains and runs and over the 90 and kicks over to the left. I can't quite tell what happens after as its gone behind the walls. There's another drain further back but I'm not sure what that's for...maybe the main floor bathroom? That one doesn't have issues.

I'm not good with identifying anything less than the obvious. But maybe this kitchen sink is wet vented? The fitting is Lasso. I couldn't see the Lasso brand on any other fitting from what I can tell which makes me think it was messed with.

What would be the best way to fix this drain mess? I can redo the drain, I'm just not sure what fitting to use.

Edit:
I think I would need to use a a wye and 1/8th fitting? I would just have to make sure it's Angled correctly so I can join the kitchen drain pipe and have the proper grade. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Im not familiar with LASCO as being drainage fittings but a very common fitting manufacture of pressure fittings and might be available in both Maybe you are incorrectly spelling the name
It could be there is no vent at all on the kichen sink , I can only take wild guesses you seem to get that if its got a vent then water wont glug glug. so somehow its not vented either by improper build or stoppages or blockages of many differant causes including back fall where water becomes trapped.

 

[heybeats]

Im not familiar with LASCO as being drainage fittings but a very common fitting manufacture of pressure fittings and might be available in both Maybe you are incorrectly spelling the name
It could be there is no vent at all on the kichen sink , I can only take wild guesses you seem to get that if its got a vent then water wont glug glug. so somehow its not vented either by improper build or stoppages or blockages of many differant causes including back fall where water becomes trapped.

Understood. It's LASCO.

You commented on the san tee on its back. I can redo the connection and establish a proper grade. Is the san tee still the appropriate fitting (theres another pipe upstream of that main horizontal pipe and nothing further) or a wye? I seem to reas that wye would be best suited since it will direct the flow of water better (I could be wrong) I don't mind fixing this drain run since it's easily accessible.

Sorry for the questions.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Maybe its just a vent I dont know what you got there but either way its kind of micky mouse (though some guys on here disagree and think for venting a santee can go on anyway you choose because its "just air") Im not sure its related to the kitchen but when I see that type of work im suspect of general methods used and if other things were done to cause this.

And nothing wrong with questions thats what this is about.
When did problem start? the kitchen has never had work done other than the usual faucet changes etc>?

 

[heybeats]

Maybe its just a vent I dont know what you got there but either way its kind of micky mouse (though some guys on here disagree and think for venting a santee can go on anyway you choose because its "just air") Im not sure its related to the kitchen but when I see that type of work im suspect of general methods used and if other things were done to cause this.

And nothing wrong with questions thats what this is about.
When did problem start? the kitchen has never had work done other than the usual faucet changes etc>?

Maybe its just a vent I dont know what you got there but either way its kind of micky mouse (though some guys on here disagree and think for venting a santee can go on anyway you choose because its "just air") Im not sure its related to the kitchen but when I see that type of work im suspect of general methods used and if other things were done to cause this.

And nothing wrong with questions thats what this is about.
When did problem start? the kitchen has never had work done other than the usual faucet changes etc>?

It's been several years now. It's never been a problem before. The only thing that was done was a garburator replacement. They had some renovation done.. however no one can give me proper timeline so it's frustrating.

I'm just looking how to fix this drain. It's sloped upwards instead of down. How do I connect the kitchen drain to the other horizontal drain?

It looks like the kitchen drain pipe is sloped up, so I'm not sure how much play I have to grade properly. I was thinking a couple of 45 to make a drop and then connect to a wye? Is it supposed to connect to a wye or a san tee?

 

[Jeff H Young]

I would remove the santee and use a wye and 45 pointed up on a 45 degree angle then conect that to kitchen line with proper slope. regardless of whether this is the cause i would fix this

 

[heybeats]

I would remove the santee and use a wye and 45 pointed up on a 45 degree angle then conect that to kitchen line with proper slope. regardless of whether this is the cause i would fix this

Alright. I'll give that a go and see what happens. I'll keep you posted. Thank you for your time

 

[WorthFlorida]

Been very busy lately, sorry I could not get back. Do what Jeff suggest and it must be a wye. Any 90º bend must be a medium or long sweep. What is used here is a medium bend which is OK.

To get more slop, you can install the wye at a 45º angle and connect to it with a 45º elbow. I'm not a plumber bit I'm sure Jeff and correct me if I'm wrong.

2" pipe to the 3" main stack is all that is needed for a double sink. A san-tee would not have past inspection so I think someone in the redid this with a 3" trying to take care of the problem, but as you found, it is not sloped properly. The joints without purple primer means only PVC cement was used. CPVC cement is yellow as you can see its used for the water lines. If the yellowest color you see is not he same as the CPVC, then the clear PVC cement turned a slight color as it aged.

In areas of freezing weather and snow, 3" vent pipe is only needed where it exits the roof and its usually local code variances.

This is a good reference.

https://www.co.lincoln.or.us/sites/default/files/fileattachments/planning_amp_development/page/722/plumbing_guide_2015_-_helpful_hints_residential_construction.pdf

 

[heybeats]

I would remove the santee and use a wye and 45 pointed up on a 45 degree angle then conect that to kitchen line with proper slope. regardless of whether this is the cause i would fix this

Ok so I made the changes. My goodness it was challenging. Ya it looks terrible with the primer job but it was a tight squeeze. Please don't judge me.

I have it graded properly and ran the water and it's still gurgling. This is a double sink with only 1.5" drain.

I'm going to try and get up the attic this week to see if there's even a vent nearby. I'm just baffled that this was not a problem before and it is now.

There is another drain upstream and whatever is draining does not have the same gurgle issue.

Would it be better to install an AAV for the kitchen sink? And should I eliminate one of the kitchen p trap?

 

[Jeff H Young]

An aav would possibly stop the gurgleing . I doubt very much that its unvented but anything is possible .
I still suspect a stoppage .