Joist right below sill prevent to make a hole for the drain pipe

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wwhitney

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That last drawing is a very nice perspective rendering. But it's still not a cross section and still doesn't have the requested information.

Below is a very crude drawing I made up that may be approximately correct based on what I've understood from your narrative. But it's not to scale, not fully dimensioned, doesn't have the finishes, etc. If you can make a drawing like that is as neat as your other drawings, it will be great.

[Since you mention the that the existing 2x6 joist is off level, the height between the top of the nailer and the top of the joist will vary depending on where on the wall you draw the cross section. So a good choice would be at the centerline of the vanity sink closer to the toilet.]

It doesn't look very promising for getting DWV from the wall into the first joist bay in the bathroom, so please include the details about the first joist bay under the room behind the plumbing wall. Also, where do your drains need to end up to tie into your existing drains? And at what elevation? That is, are you exiting the area in a direction parallel to the joists, or parallel to the beams? If parallel to the joists, does it need to be above the beams, or can it be below the beams?

As to the WC, for a standard 12" rough-in with a typical closet flange, you'd need the region 10" to 14" from the finish wall to be clear, for the vertical pipe. Is that what you checked? That would be in the second joist bay in the bathroom, next to the double joist?

Cheers, Wayne

CrudeExample.jpg
 
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Laostrich

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Hi!

most of your assumption is correct except that the joist right below the sill is 2x6. You are right on the toilet flange clearance, I didnt realize that there is diameter factor:)

I’ve finally got the idea what you originally requested asked for AFTER looking at yours, I’m so embarrassed.. oh my. I’m so sorry and so thankful that you are being patiently guiding me over and over again. Hope any new home owners can be encouraged to ask questions here by reading this.

there might be some changes on the way since most of fixtures will not work on that wall. When I come back with concrete layout, I’ll be sure to include plane drawing with all measurements included. I hope you can drop by, Wayne. Thank you again( I would have send you PM if I knew how to, because it is not so related plumbing information, but didn’t want to leave without how grateful I am)
 

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Yes! I’m toying with lay out with my mentor whom I met from the other forum who’s been helping me regarding strengthening the framing structures. I changed so many times on lay out, all the extra work that you see on the pics, because of me changing things. Plus I can be overboard on things..:). Should be come up with layout within few days, talk to you soon!
 

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DD4031CC-39B2-48EB-93A2-F61CC1643A37.jpeg I have one more question before come up with layout. For this tub spec, will diameter clearance for the drain need from 11 7/8” or 15”? Thank you
 

wwhitney

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11-7/8" is the distance to the centerline of the drain opening from the edge of the tub. I'm not sure why the lower drawing calls out 15", i.e. what tub feature that distance is measured to.

Cheers, Wayne
 

wwhitney

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That tub has an unusual recessed apron. I think the 15" may be telling you that the recessed apron only meets the floor starting at 15" off the wall. Closer to the wall there would be a gap. I guess the idea is that you install some shelving in front of the gap.

Cheers, Wayne
 

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Hi Wayne,

Probably not very wise move from me but I've got subfloor in and I've also purchased the tub. It's a 5ft tea for two by Kohler. It is a reversible and has an option to install it as above floor drain. I felt like it could be a safe bet, What I'm about to post might change thing or two..

Your questions from earlier post, is pretty much I think what one need to offer advices.

The main stack is sloped down West to East, sitting 1ft in of the bathroom perpendicular to the joists. they are about 12" below joists and the beams are 4x6 except one close to where tub will be( either east wall or west) is 4x10". There are total three beams 4ft apart the room is approximately 11 1/2" x 7 1/2" and the distance from where the tub drain will be to the main stack is about 9ft. just did the quick math and maybe I will need to make a notch bit to do 1/4" slope per foot? I know there is some rules on how much and where you can make notches on the beam.

checking standard toilet rough in as well as what I already bought, I have to keep the toilet on the opposite wall. but I would really love to work around to see if I can move vanity and the tub plumbing lines on the opposite wall( West) with tie into existing main stack. For vanity, I realized that you can't make pipes through the sill plate but I'm hoping that there is enough clearance for coming through the floor?

I've tried to draw cross plane drawing based on your sample, and I specified for narrowest space between 2x4 nailers to next joist where the center of vanity will be, and also specified different space for where proposed tub will be.

as I mentioned before, I'll be hiring licensed plumber, but would be nice to have all the layout set first so that I wouldn't make any last minute changes risking compromise the design and adding cost. Since nothing has installed so I'm hoping if you can suggest something else if current layout is not working? I have a toilet, tub and the vanity already, but if I MUST, then I'm willing to get a single vanity ( but still at least 50-54")since I'm not too crazy about the vanity style anymore( I bought it about two years , going very close to 3 years, yikes!)

here is a link for the tub and I've also got the part where you can elevate the tub to install as a above floor drain.
https://www.us.kohler.com/webassets/kpna/catalog/pdf/en/K-850_spec_US-CA_Kohler_en.pdf

If this drawing is not good, or need to add additional information, please let me know!

IMG_4152.jpg IMG_4151.jpg IMG_4150.jpg IMG_3754.jpg IMG_3749 (1).PNG
 

wwhitney

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I haven't been able to wrap my head around all the new information and integrate it with the earlier thread, but here are a few starter comments:

- Your layout has the long dimension of the tub crossing the joists. I've never dealt with that situation, I've always had a clear joist bay for my waste and over flow assembly. Maybe someone else can tell us how it's usually done. My starting position is that I wouldn't want to notch joists for the tub waste, so the tub would have to be elevated, but perhaps that's too conservative.

- The cross section "preferred vanity location (west)" is what I originally asked for, but it is missing some dimensions. I know a modern 2x4 nailer (H) is 1.5" x 3.5", but what are the exact dimensions of D, E, F and G? And the void space surrounded by them is labeled 1", but which dimension is that, and what is the other dimension? Lastly you have a label saying 3/8" cement board and tile over the plywood subfloor F, but that's not plausible. You could use 1/4" cement board, then if your tiles are, say, 5/16" thick, you might end up with 3/8" for thinset and tile, on top of the 1/4" cement board.

- How about a picture of the vanity? Is there a toe kick space that can be used to conceal a drain pipe that kicks out of the wall into the room to avoid the joist under the west wall?

- Do not notch your beams, and think three times before notching your joists.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Tuttles Revenge

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The Tea For Two is not made to be an alcove tub up against a wall since it doesn't have a tiling flange unless you add one. It needs to be installed as a drop in or as an undermount without that modification. There are rubber flanges available for that. If that tub is going to be used for a shower you really need to think of how you're going to seal that up.

The waste and overflow for those are also a bit tricky. We installed one last year and had to boom it in on a 40ft arm thru a narrow window..
 

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I haven't been able to wrap my head around all the new information and integrate it with the earlier thread, but here are a few starter comments:

- Your layout has the long dimension of the tub crossing the joists. I've never dealt with that situation, I've always had a clear joist bay for my waste and over flow assembly. Maybe someone else can tell us how it's usually done. My starting position is that I wouldn't want to notch joists for the tub waste, so the tub would have to be elevated, but perhaps that's too conservative.

- The cross section "preferred vanity location (west)" is what I originally asked for, but it is missing some dimensions. I know a modern 2x4 nailer (H) is 1.5" x 3.5", but what are the exact dimensions of D, E, F and G? And the void space surrounded by them is labeled 1", but which dimension is that, and what is the other dimension? Lastly you have a label saying 3/8" cement board and tile over the plywood subfloor F, but that's not plausible. You could use 1/4" cement board, then if your tiles are, say, 5/16" thick, you might end up with 3/8" for thinset and tile, on top of the 1/4" cement board.

- How about a picture of the vanity? Is there a toe kick space that can be used to conceal a drain pipe that kicks out of the wall into the room to avoid the joist under the west wall?

- Do not notch your beams, and think three times before notching your joists.

Cheers, Wayne


Thanks for stopping by.

I worked really hard to add these joists to stiffen the floor ( although with lack of planning and knowledge and the plan changes that gone through several time,) I really would prefer not cutting any joist because they are added on joists are short length, 8ft, and any notch that it will need is close to end of joist which I read somewhere no no. and of course beam as well. I'm seeing what insufficient joists/span and not having a right soil slop and poor drainage can do to the house ( the house has some serious floor differences up to 2-2 1/2" throughout the house, but the settlement has done looong time ago and the house is safe and sound( according to few structural engineer who came by soon as I acquired the house) and have installed drainage system around perimeter of the house.

All letter measurements are actual,
D: 2" x 2 1/2"
E: between 3/4" -7/8" original diagonal subfloor but barely showing on that wall cavity under sill plate because there were extensive water damages
F: 3/4" thick advantech subfloor t
G: 1 1/2" x 5 1/2"( 2x6) that were there before me. it(8ft long) sat on beginning of hall way to 1" void are. think there were some repair done by sliding new joist with 30x 72" original cast iron tub still intact so the joist are narrower than 5 1/2', i'd say about 5", then i added 2x4 nailer about 1/4" -3/8" higher than that to get level with rest of the joists. so the area where I labeled 1" is about 1" wide and 1/4_ to 3/8" recessed void space. since I did the rough carpentry work, I might come off as have some knowledge on wood framing whatnot but it was all done with help from seasoned retired carpenter via online help so I was more like a marionette. and had i come with concrete layout plant, he wouldn't have advised me to do what is done now. I hope you can make of attached pic, new yellow lumber is replaced sill pates that was shredding upon touching it and shows that 1" gap.

Wayne, you are right on floor thickness being not plausible, the drawing should have said, 3/8" for ditra heat, then 3/8" for tile and thinset. so total 3/4" layers will be added on to the floor.

vanity pic is attached.

I'm hoping adjustable feet for the tub to elevated so the tub can be installed as above floor drain. I've receive the parts and they are very very solid and heavy. here is link for k1172 and k23856

https://www.us.kohler.com/webassets/kpna/catalog/pdf/en/K-1172_spec_US-CA_Kohler_en.pdf
https://www.us.kohler.com/webassets/kpna/catalog/pdf/en/K-23856_spec_US-CA_Kohler_en.pdf




IMG_3026.PNG

Thanks for being patient and still asking right questions.

-Renee
 

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Laostrich

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The Tea For Two is not made to be an alcove tub up against a wall since it doesn't have a tiling flange unless you add one. It needs to be installed as a drop in or as an undermount without that modification. There are rubber flanges available for that. If that tub is going to be used for a shower you really need to think of how you're going to seal that up.

The waste and overflow for those are also a bit tricky. We installed one last year and had to boom it in on a 40ft arm thru a narrow window..


Hi, thanks for sharing your concern. The tub will be installed as an alcove, I know it is frowned upon practice. I'm considering fabricating copper angle. something similar to below link.

.

It will be used by me and only me, no kids and if this tub will/can be located where proposed area, then I need to put a shower curtain on the inner wall as well as apron side since the tub will be close to windows with only 6" pony wall between the wall and the tub location
IMG_4076.jpg

Since that wall is 90" long, I'm hoping that I can have this 5ft tub one corner and have enough clearance for waste and overflow maintenance panel for the future. some spec like this one from home depot listed Tea for two drain part K-7169-AF on their website specification section, but if you go to kohler website, they listed k-23856 as drain. I think there has been some issues and complaints and they've come up with k-23856? ??? Do you remember which drain part did you install with?
 

Tuttles Revenge

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As long as a seal is created.. otherwise water will get behind the tile or whatever finish and it will rot out. Not if.. but when. Not pictured but the tub had a flange glued to the 3 sides to prevent water from getting behind the tile. I recall it being a silicone or rubber product made specifically for this application. I have seen flashing used for the same purpose when we had a shower pan with no tiling flange(the dumbest shower pan ever made).

Here is the Tea For Two we installed last year just after being brought in on a boom. Pic is from the builders website..

We used the K-7147-AF-CP but just now looking at the drain you linked, I'd have used that one instead as it uses an external cable drive rather than that outdated linkage in the one we used.

Spyglass.PNG
 
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As long as a seal is created.. otherwise water will get behind the tile or whatever finish and it will rot out. Not if.. but when. Not pictured but the tub had a flange glued to the 3 sides to prevent water from getting behind the tile. I recall it being a silicone or rubber product made specifically for this application. I have seen flashing used for the same purpose when we had a shower pan with no tiling flange(the dumbest shower pan ever made).

Here is the Tea For Two we installed last year just after being brought in on a boom. Pic is from the builders website.. but when he says that he figured out how to get the tub in.. that was really my idea.. taking the window



View attachment 72770

Taking credit for someone else's idea happens ALL the time no matter what industry you are in, glad that you got to let it out here :)


"We used the K-7147-AF-CP but just now looking at the drain you linked, I'd have used that one instead as it uses an external cable drive rather than that outdated linkage in the one we used." --- Glad to hear pro like yourself agree with the idea. Thanks again for letting me ( us) know!

Mine is just a soaker tub by they way, it weighs about 250 lbs and it wasn't nearly as 4k, my godness!
 
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Tuttles Revenge

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Any time you can make tub drains less complex or remove internal parts is a win. Cable drains are tried and true. Just do not wash out any tile grout down the tub drain. It will ruin the lifty thing.

Ooops.. I actually thought I deleted that part about my friend taking the credit.. didn't matter for your purposes and either way its his companies website I stole the pic from.. even trade!
 

wwhitney

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FWIW, the K-850 spec sheet lists K-1179 as an adhesive vinyl tiling bead to attach to the tub.

On the waste and overflow tee, I'd be inclined to keep it with a vertical outlet if you can avoid the joist there, which I think might just fit (cut away the nailer without concern). Or if necessary you could put a small offset in the vertical overflow tube to move the tee outlet closer to the drain and past the joist.

As for the original question on the vanity plumbing, with the 2x3 studs in your wall, I would think you'd want separate san-tees behind each lav location, so that all the DWV in the wall is vertical, with nothing passing through the studs. This assumes you can reinforce the top plate for the 1-1/2" vent penetrations and combine the vents above (attic?).

Then for the drains, to avoid the joist there, it looks like it would be easier to bring the drains into the the joist bay just outside the room. I think if you slide a 45 degree bend (inlet facing up, outlet facing diagonally into the outside bay) down as far as it goes without hitting the joist, you could get away with just cutting the bottom plate and subfloor without intruding into the neighboring room (particularly if it has old plaster and a baseboard on top, that is a fair amount of extra width). Each drain would enter the joist bay separately and then turn horizontal, with the drain size increasing to 2" at the point they are combined. You would need to confirm that the horizontal line wouldn't end up too low at the main horizontal drain, or hit one of those beams. [BTW, a stack is a vertical drain/vent.]

The other option you have with that style of open front toe space vanity would be to box out the volume underneath the vanity bottom between the two side panels and projecting out maybe 4" from the wall board. So if you looked under the vanity you'd see a very short baseboard and the void space would be 4" less deep than the vanity. That should let you turn the bottom 45s on the lav drains around to go into the first joist bay under the bathroom; they'd have to be higher up to avoid the joist now. But I think with the extra boxed out space you could still keep them hidden and avoid the joist, just cutting through the bottom plate, the wall finish, the subfloor, and the nailer.

Cheers, Wayne
 

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Thanks so much Wayne, I need to print this and read few times over and over with specs right next to me. I haven't really comprehended all the things you said but wanted to say thanks! I'll come back with questions later this evening. umm I'm at work. getting excited about the project again! ( with some reservation, of course ;))

Is there a Los Angeles based pro who hangs out on this forum?
 

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84ADF8AD-9E5D-43C3-ACA3-BEB87AEBE084.jpeg Wayne, often times when I'm getting advices from something I don't know much of , I write my own way to make senses. Please see Italic next your comments with bold font.



QUOTE="wwhitney, post: 674195, member: 88515"]FWIW, the K-850 spec sheet lists K-1179 as an adhesive vinyl tiling bead to attach to the tub.

On the waste and overflow tee, I'd be inclined to keep it with a vertical outlet if you can avoid the joist there, which I think might just fit (cut away the nailer without concern). Or if necessary you could put a small offset in the vertical overflow tube to move the tee outlet closer to the drain and past the joist.------ upon looking at the K-23856 drawing spec again and doing a math can i make an assumption that you think verical outlet installation is feasible with horizon part of the drain still need to be sitting on top of the subfloor, is that correct? I shouldn't have include cement board and tile/thinset application on my west cross plane drawing last ngith since all the tub installation picture/youtuve I've seen are tub installed up against the studs( or tub deck but it doesn't apply in my case since it'll be an alcove installlation. Therefore, 1/4" void space+ 1 1/2" nailer + space of 7 3/4" and two joists 3 1/2"= 13". this 13" is up against to the wall studs. I'm guessing you would need about 1" clearance from that wall studs since it takes 1 1/2" PVC tee. If I take the 2x4 nailer out only on the tub area that needs, most likely the drain will go on that spot then it will work, right? With an assumption that horizontal drain part will still need to sit on the above sub floor meaning I still need to raise the tub. ----which I don't mind at all, the tub will be about 21 to 22" high after all is done and i actually prefer this height. could you please confirm or correct me on this?

As for the original question on the vanity plumbing, with the 2x3 studs in your wall, I would think you'd want separate san-tees behind each lav location, so that all the DWV in the wall is vertical, with nothing passing through the studs. This assumes you can reinforce the top plate for the 1-1/2" vent penetrations and combine the vents above (attic?).------I'm understanding your comments as both vanity sink will need separate verical vent all the way to attic( yes, there is an attic above that one can stand on and own water drain that will tie below joists underneath so that I can avoid thick coupling( or fitting?) on this shallw wall made out of 2x3----oops, just realized that this is only for vent, i guess you left more complicated elements next.

Then for the drains, to avoid the joist there, it looks like it would be easier to bring the drains into the the joist bay just outside the room. I think if you slide a 45 degree bend (inlet facing up, outlet facing diagonally into the outside bay) down as far as it goes without hitting the joist, you could get away with just cutting the bottom plate and subfloor without intruding into the neighboring room (particularly if it has old plaster and a baseboard on top, that is a fair amount of extra width). Each drain would enter the joist bay separately and then turn horizontal, with the drain size increasing to 2" at the point they are combined. You would need to confirm that the horizontal line wouldn't end up too low at the main horizontal drain, or hit one of those beams. [BTW, a stack is a vertical drain/vent.]-----noted on the stack term! I'm understanding you are suggesting drain pipes for each( or can these two be tied at some point below joists levle before join onto main horizontal drain or does each drain for each sink needs to be connected to main horizontal drain one at a time, separately?

The other option you have with that style of open front toe space vanity would be to box out the volume underneath the vanity bottom between the two side panels and projecting out maybe 4" from the wall board. So if you looked under the vanity you'd see a very short baseboard and the void space would be 4" less deep than the vanity. That should let you turn the bottom 45s on the lav drains around to go into the first joist bay under the bathroom; they'd have to be higher up to avoid the joist now. But I think with the extra boxed out space you could still keep them hidden and avoid the joist, just cutting through the bottom plate, the wall finish, the subfloor, and the nailer.------- so this option as I undrstand is the drain line will be coming from the floor betweenwall to vanity space the line being penetrated through bottom of the vanity. correct? if I need to bring the vanity out 4", it defeats the purpose me wanting to move it because the endtrance door sits unevenly on the wall, meaning from the door opening to the east wall, 22" and to the west, 27" and I thought that it makes more sense to have the vanity on the more spacious section of the room. If I build a bump out to bring the vanity more close to the door, then I'd rather keep the vanity on the east side wall( although I would need to add one more plumbing lines to accomodate double vanity)and switch the tub as well-----because as I mentioned, I'd like to install tub drain service panel at the end of the tub and if that proposed service panel area is on same line as the vanity, there won't be enough clearance to acces. to me, it makes most sense to have the end of tub with as much of space as one can have hence same wall to where the toilet will be. only issue is that I don't think i can have a toilet on the west wall, can I?

Cheers, Wayne[/QUOTE]

Speaking of tub service panel, would it be possible to have all shower/tub spout and controller be one wall and the drain on the opposite side? tub cover itself is no issue because it supposedly closed flush to the tub wall when in use. And even if it might look bit funny, I'd rathet have a piece of mind that i can fix the tub drain without opening up the wall. Curious to know if this setting will lead to malfuntion on any mechanical part or drain issue.


Hope I made some senses..


***** edit. new service panel idea with oppsoite tub drain will throw some chain of thoughs. before go any further, let me come up with whole between joists measurements. Sorry keep adding variable.
 
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Laostrich

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doing brief math again and I don't think i can put the toilet on the west wall unless i build a bump out, about 3". since the toilet is the only fixture coming out form the wall unlike 6ft vanity occupying whole wall, I might incline to do that IF this new configuration will make the job easier,.

I set aside budget to move the lines so if keeping the vanity to where it used to be would save me considerable amount of headache and efforts (=cost) then please share your thoughts. cost wise I have no idea since there will be considrable amount of work needs to be regardless since all three bathroom fixtures need to rework and adding a vantiy line. but if by keeping the new layout ( Plan b) help relastionsip between main waste drain line more foo proof then i'm not opposed to the plan . added bonus will be I can get a more open/airy vanity you see all over online in the future. it might be more design elements but would be really helpful how challenge/costly it will be to go with origianl plan vs plan b before make a decision.
 
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