Joist right below sill prevent to make a hole for the drain pipe

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Laostrich

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Hi all,

I’ve changed layout couple times and finally settled on having all plumbing fixtures to be on side of the wall, the problem is there’s joist right below the sill plate on that wall to prevent making holes for the drain pipe.
( the picture is with added 2x4 for subfloor)

The room is gutted with 2 1/2” studs. I searched similar topics on the forum and found the pic from one of contributors here. Would that work on my situation? Vertical vent will be no problem buried on that wall but concern is for the drains...

Totally new to plumbing’s and I’m planning on getting professional help, I’d like to know if this will fit into my budget. ( vanity and the toilet were on the opposite side of the wAll with the tub sitting on by the door wall. )

Any help will be grateful!
 

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Reach4

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To put plumbing in that wall, you should probably build it out to 4-1/2 inches (the size of a 2x5), but maybe 2x4s would be enough.
"2x3"s are, I think 2.5 inch deep.

I think California will not let you use the AAV without a specific exception, so plan on running a real vent pipe.

If you were just asking if you could jog around the sill, yes you can. Jogging with 45s is good. If you use 90s, they should be long sweeps when changing waste flow from vertical to horizontal, and can be medium or long when switching back to vertical from horizontal.
 
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Laostrich

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To put plumbing in that wall, you should probably build it out to 4-1/2 inches (the size of a 2x5), but maybe 2x4s would be enough.
"2x3"s are, I think 2.5 inch deep.

I think California will not let you use the AAV without a specific exception, so plan on running a real vent pipe.

If you were just asking if you could jog around the sill, yes you can. Jogging with 45s is good. If you use 90s, they should be long sweeps when changing waste flow from vertical to horizontal, and can be medium or long when switching back to vertical from horizontal.

thank you so much for above advice. I really appreciate that.

few following up questions. Yes, I’m planning on having a proper vertical vent to comply local building laws and as I mentioned, the studs are 2 1/2”( it’s 1910 craftsman style house, single story with at least 7ft attic) should I add studs at the this point before professional plumber do the rough plumbing? Since I’ll be a GC( with very limited renovation expereience, I may add). I want to make sure that I won’t workin backwards as I’ll be a carpenter doing framing work.

lastly, I’ve seen images of floor plumbing on more older houses while researching it and wonder having the floor plumbing makes the house instantly put a “older house” look. Nothing wrong with that, I love old houses with all the characters and mine is not short on this. But.... for some reason, I want my bathroom to be look fairly modern( not necessarily the fixtures but for the mechanical part to be modern)

any thoughts? Advice?
 

wwhitney

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How about a dimensioned vertical cross section of the joist and wall framing, showing the floor build up and thickness as well as the wall finish build up and thickness, including baseboard if any?

That will let you see if you can bore through the subfloor at a 45 degree angle for a 2" DWV pipe while staying hidden behind the finishes and not hitting the joist. It would be okay to clip the joist top 1/2" tall by 1/2" wide for a pipe, maybe a little more.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Laostrich

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Another consideration that I can think of is, if I were doing the floor plumbing, would still within the 21”

Wayne,
I’m not sure if you were asking to see more broader picture taken from far( I hope so..)

here are some more details.
Original joists were 24” apart. True 2” x 5 1/2”
Original setting was tub on the prospered wall with plumbing lines on the perpendicular wall on the door wall with lots of water damages. No vertical vent for the tub.
Then toilet with 2” vertical vent and the single vanity with 1 1/2” vent tied together to the toilet at the attic.

Wall studs are 16” o.c.

main waste pipe is 4” ABS running perpendicular to the joist right by the door entrance.

I hope I’m explaining all the necessary specs.
 

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Laostrich

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I’m not sure why one of pic won’t upload. I’ll have to go home and take a nee pic.
 

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wwhitney

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I was suggesting you make an accurate scaled drawing of the final assembly you are going to end up with. One dimension would be vertical, and one dimension horizontal, perpendicular to the wall. Then you can show the joist as 2" x 5-1/2", the sub floor thickness, the bottom plate cross sectional dimensions (is it really 2-1/2" and not 2-3/4"?) and location, any floor layers above the subfloor up to the finish surface, the wall finish (drywall), and the baseboard or tile or whatever.

For a 2" thick joist, you could hit 1" of it at a 45. So you could draw a line at a 45 degree angle that hits the joist 1" in from the corner on the top and on one face. Then draw another line parallel to and above it, 2-1/2" away (to allow at least a little clearance for a 2-3/8" OD pipe). Does that line break out into the room, or is it fully hidden beneath the finish floor and behind the baseboard? If the latter, that's your DWV location (although as a 45 bend has a radius to it, you may need more than 2-1/2"). If not, how much would you have to fir out the wall to keep it fully hidden?

If you have a vanity cabinet, you can also just give up on keeping it hidden, and put it behind the vanity. It will probably only intersect the toe kick space, not the interior of the cabinet. In this case you'd want to avoid hitting the joist at all, but it could kiss the joist.

You can also try turning the 45 to go into the other joist bay. But if your 2" thick joist is centered under a 2-1/2" wide bottom plate, that won't help. While if it's a 2-3/4" bottom plate, and the face of the joist is aligned with one edge of the bottom plate, going the other way will definitely help. Assuming you can still make the DWV layout work (maybe not).

Cheers Wayne

P.S. In case it's not clear, the 2x4 nailer for the subfloor repair doesn't matter for this discussion. You can just cut it away where the pipe would cross it, and that won't make any difference to its function.
 

Laostrich

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Wayne,
Thank you for your advice. I can definitely come up with scaled down drawings only I’m not so sure if you were saying three different diagrams. One being depicting floor joist, the other one for the studs, and third one, perpendicular to the wall( this one really lost me). I’ve never done any house related work other than stripping paint and mini powered room tile work, and all the added woodwork done was through lots of help from this wonderful retired carpenter from another online. So please bear with with, I promise I’ll come up with scaled down drawing( would be nice if you can confirm I understood what you were asking) thanks!!
 

wwhitney

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One drawing, a scale version of a plane cutting through the wall and the joist, with all the final materials and their exact relative positions (assuming you don't fur the wall). That lets you see if you can hide the pipe or not, or can hide it with furring.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Laostrich

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I looked up what plane drawing should be but with limited drawing skills, these are what I have.

im also attaching window that I’ll be keeping so I wouldn’t have whole lot of space to build “bump out” to house plumbing lines. I think there is about 2 1/2” that I can build if it need to.

for material wise, I’ll be using 1/2” dry wall in the non wet area, and tub, either schluter or hardie board. I’m bit flexible when it comes fixtures, tub, vanity and toilet. Subfloor will be 3/4” advantech and I added 4x6 beam right by the door entrance wall which approximately measures 4ft away from next beam.
 

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wwhitney

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Those drawings are quite neat and look great, and they should help you with your design and layout. But none of them are what I suggested, which is a cross section. If you don't know what that is, let me take a stab (so to speak) at explaining:

Imagine your job is done (ignoring the missing DWV that we are trying to figure out where to put). And imagine you have a piece of paper that is very stiff (stays flat) and very sharp on the edges, so you could push it into a wall or floor and it would just cut through the materials, and quite big.

Now go to the wall that is going to have the plumbing (the wall that is shown in your first drawing in the last post). Make your paper vertical, and perpendicular to the wall (so it is parallel to the side of your vanity cabinet, for example). Shove it into the wall enough to reach the far side of the wall framing. Shove down into the floor system to reach the bottom of the joists. Make it big enough so that it crosses that double joist next to the wall, too.

Now imagine that every piece of material that crosses the paper leaves a mark on it representing that piece's boundary where it is cut by the paper. The resulting drawing is a cross section. That's what I was asking for, because it will let you see if there's room for pipe to exit the wall into the joist space without hitting too much of the joist, and without poking out through the room finishes. The paper would be bigger than 8-1/2" x 11", so you'd want to draw it at scale; 2:1 would be sufficient to get everything to fit, 4:1 would also be fine.

The reason I suggested including the double joist is that based on your floor framing plan, it looks like it's right under where a normal 12" rough-in toilet would go. You may need to go with a 14" rough-in toilet.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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Laostrich

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Hi Wayne,

I think I’ve got what section of measurements you need. As embarrassing as it is, I’ll come up with what I should have done in the first place, if not tonight, then by tomorrow. :)
thank you.
 

Jeff H Young

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still not clear enough for me to make heads or tails of . Good luck on the old house worked on a handful around LA from the 20s 5.5 inch joists aint much but with girders at 4 foot don't need to be.
 

Laostrich

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Before I moved in about three years ago, the house had 2x5.5 joist about 24” apart on 8ft spacing. one between window wall to middle beam, is added on by contractor( first ever project with a contractor who left 1” gap between joist to the beam without shims.. found out while I was working on this project) then the house load bearing wall( the bathroom wall entrance hallway that divide the house half lengthwise) doesn’t sit on the beam( rather beam is sitting on the other end of hallway. Not load bearing wall)so small beam is added on right by the door entrance to just give me a piece of mind before tile will be on. consequently, I have all kinds of drop on the floor, up to 2” but the house has been like that for really really long time and hasn’t moved since, hence all the joists with long shims to make the floor level.—- the perimeter is dropped more than the door. Oh joy of old house:). .

initially was going to keep the 29x72” long cast iron tub, but since then giving up the idea, tub is out, I saw the water damage on that joist on the left, so had to sister etc... so work got added on gradually but I’ve learned a lot and had fun doing it so no regret there.

before I waste anyone’s time further. Wanted to ask you, Wayne, if attached sample is something you had in mind? With measurements?
 

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wwhitney

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The picture in the lower right, without the 3-D aspect. Or something like this, but of the bottom of the wall and the joist, and showing all the finishes and the correct member sizes to scale.

Cheers, Wayne

7173b09a23de6f50381bfa2ee2db706c.jpg
 

Laostrich

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I think I need to explain little bit of how the joists are shimmed first. From door wall to window wall, all the joists are dipped about 1 1/8”. So all the joists had to have longs shims to bring them level. On the proposed wall, 2x6 ( ill call it A) was added under the sill but sticking out 1/2” because there is gas pipe vertically going through the sill. before I changed my mind to move all the fixtures to that wall. Since joist A was added under the sill which is lower than rest of now shimmed joists so I had to attach 2x4 on the side of joist A to match rest of the joists level. I hope I’m explaining it clear. Bear with me, I have a drawing at the end.

so from this....
 

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Laostrich

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To this. Please notice that 2x4 blocks are attached to the joist near the sill
High kites in pink. I can make longer to cover whole wall. If not.. maybe it’s time to have local plumbers come in:). Wanted to have all framing work done before have the estimate and just proceed but I’m started to realizing that my lack of knowledge won’t help anyone, I’m afraid..

regardless, thank you so much, Wayne. I really really appreciated be patient with me and tried to help me! Thank you again!
 

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Laostrich

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I checked this morning again and I’ll have 12” clearance for the toilet either at least 1/4” fur out ( it had lathes of that thickness and for tile flange on the tub, cement board should be over the tub flange if I’m not mistaken, with 1/2” or 5/8” drywall, I think I’m safe by hair thin margin. With mud and all, should be okay, I think.
 
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