I've been insulted

Discussion in 'HVAC Heating & Cooling' started by jimjomac, Oct 24, 2007.

  1. PEW

    PEW DIY Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Class!!!!!
     
  2. CHH

    CHH New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    And people call engineers arrogant. Sheesh. I'll allow that my installation is better than I would have gotten from a licensed tech. The tech would have stuck with a simple R&R while I went with a primary/secondary system out of all copper and brass. I also went with a packaged Honneywell zone control valve/controller board unit that cleaned up the wire snarl which had been in place for 40+ years. I had pictures of it posted for awhile and received no negative comments.

    Prejudge all you like Bob but you've got it wrong if you think a licensed tech is always going to do a better job. I've been building stuff in industry for more than 30 years so I know quite well what I can and can't do.
     
  3. theelviscerator

    theelviscerator New Member

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    Oct 2, 2007
    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    Elkhart, IN
    Never mind speedbump. He makes Oscar the grouch look like a Pollyanna.
     
  4. jimjomac

    jimjomac New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2007
    Location:
    MD
    Being an engineer doesn't make me good or bad. Being a licensed tech doesn't make an installer good or bad. In both cases, it's the attitude and pride in workmanship. The tech has the experience, fer sure! But he can use that experience to make a better installation, or to finish the job faster, or somewhere in between. It's all up to him (and maybe his boss). The engineer DIY'er (or any DIY'er) can learn proper techniques if he cares to take the time to learn, and install a system that's "probably good enough", or goes the extra mile and does it to perfection. I know DIY'er at both ends of that spectrum, and the "good enough" ones scare me! The others garner high respect from me.

    I happen to be a perfectionist. I'm not sure if my engineering training instilled that in me, or if it's just me, doesn't matter which. I just want the job done right. The old saw, "If you want it done right, do it yourself" applies. If I find a tech who's also a perfectionist, I'll hire him, if I can. If not, I'll DIY it, unless it entails tools I don't have.
     
  5. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

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    Apr 18, 2005
    Occupation:
    Service Plumber, Outdoor Temperature Relief Owner
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
    I'm constantly working for the elite intelligent through fashion of Angie's List and just generous consensus of people as a whole.

    For the most part, architects, engineers, anything that required a large base of knowledge. That includes lawyers as well. And Plumbers. (Ahem! Shines knuckles, wipes dirty blue collar)

    For the most part it's about character. They either exploit their status and show-off and try to pull a working relationship into their corner or they treat you like a normal individual and let you carry out your work.


    I can literally hammer out knowledge in fine-tuned fashion in technical speak that will make an engineer go bald from scratching their head.....but that doesn't prove anything to either.
     
  6. Sincraft

    Sincraft Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Ok I can't resist so here is my 2 cents.

    First: You don't have a degree in HVAC obviously and need their help.
    Second: You are asking very general questions. If I called you with very general questions that normally you consult out for a fee of, would you answer my questions or probably more so, ask how I got your number as you work with co's and not individuals. Isn't the lowly hvac guys time worth something?
    Third: You are asking questions to people who do not have the time to handle individual persons. They handle accounts or general questions. Of which, you fall into the middle as you are beyond the general person calling with stupid questions and are under the guy that buys 50 furnaces in a month off of them.
    Forth: You are also asking someone to give you advice on how to work around paying them. How would you respond if I asked you how to make something and implement it, but I'm only going to have you do the real tough parts like the cad and machining the main guts then I'm going to have someone else do the assembly and implementation BUT you have to tell me how to do it and be there when it goes cockeyed to blame.
    Fifth: You are going to get some 'real world' words from people in the HVAC industry. They from what I can tell so far, do not mince words and have LONG ago cut the politically correct speak and niceness in the attitude. It's business and if you annoy them, they will let you know it. Most likely, it's THEIR business too and business is good.
    Sixth: You are not doing well for those of us that respect the tradesman out there that are in the science field. I listen to my cohorts talk about the plumber or the furnace guy like they are 5th class citizens. They, at times are idiots. But I don't know many. Most are savvy business men, skilled laborers, skilled planners. Excellent at projection and implementation. And believe it or not, have the people skills to get the job done in their line of work. If you doubt me, then go ahead and do the job yourself and figure out the amount of time (you wasted on your companies dime while you figured all this out instead of working), effort and physical labor it will cost you.

    If you are a brilliant person, you will soon realize that the cost/benefit is not so good and that you are going to have a bit of faith after you do your research. I understand that you are an anal person (like me) and need to have ALL your ducks in a row before you release the hounds so to speak. I'm at that point right now myself and am having large problems finding that point of trust as the disparity of information flowing in is arduous at best. But eventually you will find that focal point and pull the trigger. BUT, like I said - if you think little of the industry then do it yourself if you are physically capable of doing it. IF you don't have the time, then well - sounds like you need to hire the right person and have them do it for you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2007
  7. jimjomac

    jimjomac New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2007
    Location:
    MD
    Sincraft, you may have misunderstood what I was asking the salesman. All I was asking for was a single PRICE for HARDWARE! Is that taking too much of his time?

    The reality is, this company does not like homeowners, and only deals with installers. It's a free country, they have that right. But he could have said "I'm sorry, we only sell to licensed installers.", instead of "Well, who are you with???". My not being a licensed installer should not give him license to be rude.
     
  8. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2004
    Occupation:
    Plumber
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    ?

    But he could have said "I'm sorry, we only sell to licensed installers.", instead of "Well, who are you with???".

    "Who are you with?" was to establish whether you were or were not a licensed contractor or worked for one, especially since he did not know you from Adam. It is a common question because countermen do not know EVERY tradesman that comes in, and since they move around he could be working for a different one than previously. Once that was established, then he could tell you that he only sells to contractors. Maybe you took offense before he got to the second question. If you wanted to be insulted, maybe you should have insisted he sell to you, in which case he might have doubled, or more, the price.
     
  9. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    Aug 31, 2004
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    They have the right to be rude. Not that it would be a recommended business practive, but it is free country. You...and all of us consumers....have the right to not shop at places which treat us rudely. What a country!
     
  10. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    With the availability of products on the Internet, and from HD and Lowe's, the suppliers might want to consider being a little nicer to potential customers. The Big Box stores are getting some of their customers for commodity items.

    Many of the supply houses will deal with you if you give them a little bit of basis for assuming that you are not totally green.
     
  11. speedbump

    speedbump Active Member

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    Jul 15, 2005
    Occupation:
    Water well and pump tech.
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I'm not really sure what this means, but it sounds good.

    How about that, I must have struck a few nerves. That was my intention.

    You can't expect to buy the product at wholesale prices, ask questions of tradesmen, tell them you can do it better, brag about your college degrees that the idiot counter man or the tradesmen don't have and expect to be treated like a Prince.

    bob...
     
  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    Aug 31, 2004
    Occupation:
    Plumber
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    items

    The Big Box stores are getting some of their customers for commodity items.

    And the customers are
    1. installing them,
    2. removing them because they are defective,
    3. returning them to the big box,
    4. checking the new one,
    5. going back home,
    6. reinstalling it,
    7. and then bragging about how much money they "saved" by DIYing it.

    If they bought it and had it installed by a professional, then doing steps #2 through #6, will create additional charges for labor while waiting for it to happen or coming back a second time.
     
  13. speedbump

    speedbump Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Occupation:
    Water well and pump tech.
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    They won't have to do it all over again in 1.5 to 3 years either if it's a quality item installed by a pro.

    bob...
     
  14. CHH

    CHH New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Well try to think it through. You made a blanket statement that the licensed tech will always do a better job. I pointed out that it isn't true and gave a basis for the statement. If you insist on failing to understand, well that is fine by me. If you want to continue to make snide comments then be prepared for return fire.

    What goes around comes around bubba.
     
  15. frenchie

    frenchie Jack of all trades

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Occupation:
    Caretaker
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY and Fire Island, NY
    I'm late to this, but a couple of points:

    - when homeowners DIY an HVAC system, do the CFC's get captured, or just released into the atmosphere?

    Sounds like a minor point, but there's a bunch of similar issues where not having the proper equipment and/or not having specialized knowledge = the creation of polluting, unsafe or unhealthy conditions for the homeowner, or their neighbours, or all of us: other examples include the removing of asbestos tiles; srtipping lead paint; notching-out house framing w/o understanding load paths... etc.

    On the other hand, clearly nobody here objects to DIYing; else we wouldn't hang out on this forum, would we?


    - as far as "Doggone it, I have a degree in mechanical engineering, plus a master's in engineering science. I doubt if he has any degree, except maybe snobbery" goes...

    You'd be surprised how many tradesmen & contractors have degrees. A lot of us started out doing something completely different, then got into the trades because the corporate world, or the social work environment, or academia, was too stifling & boring.

    And you may not have said anything to the guy - but I find people with that sort of attitude, tend to project it very clearly; even if/when they aren't aware they're doing it. You might want to check yourself.
     
  16. speedbump

    speedbump Active Member

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    Jul 15, 2005
    Occupation:
    Water well and pump tech.
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I think I have made my point, and if you want to just point your gun at me that's fine too. I can take it. But as far as attitude goes, I think the consensus is clear.

    bob...
     
  17. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

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    Mar 23, 2007
    Location:
    Metro NYC
    (can we work some fiberglass lopper handles into this thread?)
     
  18. jjamison

    jjamison Member

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    Sep 9, 2007
    Location:
    Arkansas
    knowledge

    This has been a very interesting thread. Where knowledge comes from (epistemology), who has it, and who gets to keep it makes for a good discussion. My thought is that “guild†control over information is coming to a close whether they be trade guilds or design/engineering guilds. The internet is making all the difference. The young folks out there will be talking to experts with all sorts of hats on and will be much less likely to discriminate based on traditional roles and perceptions of who should be doing what and who is good at what. It will be a results based intellectual economy with a free flow of information driving it (hopefully with some good empiricism at its core). Individual human beings are extremely susceptible to making cognitive errors based upon their own experiences. Just look at the world around us what unusual ideas people have about what works and doesn’t work (I found the thread about discharging a firearm into a well particularly entertaining). Alternately, engineers often have so little field experience their suggestions may have little practical application. Any individual claiming to have “specialized†knowledge or abilities based upon individual experience, licensure, or academic degrees will be regarded with some skepticism. That is not to say that gatekeeping and accrediting bodies will not continue to serve a purpose in vetting specialists and protecting broader public health concerns, but I am saying that those claiming to have “special knowledge or abilities†that they will not or can not share, won’t have the place in society that they used to. I do believe that manual dexterity, practice, skill, and field experience will be valued, but the “professionals†and “engineers†are going to find they can no longer hide behind alchemical symbols and technical jargon of yesteryear. The curtain has been parted and this thread is a part of the story.
     
  19. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Occupation:
    Service Plumber, Outdoor Temperature Relief Owner
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
    I got shot down at a electrical supply a couple weeks ago asking for "privileged info" regarding a transformer.

    Apparently they'll talk to me when I'm there spending money but before I left I started asking technical info and it was like they zipped their mouths shut.

    I couldn't voice my opinion on the matter too much as I might need them for additional products in the future but I sensed the vibe that if you're not a electrician.....pay somebody to figure it out for yourself.

    I'm glad I don't act that way with my plumbing knowledge to others. I share it quite often but not in the respect that costs me money or otherwise.
     
  20. CHH

    CHH New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    What consensus? Folks have posted on both sides and in the middle. You wouldn't be making things up now, would you? tsk, tsk
     
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