I can hear water running (percolating) in my master bath sinks when my softener regenerates - help?

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers' started by sac02, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    I had figured not because of the 40 ft and 28 ft numbers. That has to be loud.

    No, because the salt is bad for the grass. You could maybe put in a "dry well" if local rules permit and if the soil is porous enough. But I would investigate tying into a drain with a new standpipe. You have drain lines in the bathroom nearest the water heater.
     
  2. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

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    There would need to be a 'soil stack' located in the area due to the toilet located there. Perhaps the stack is within the garage wall and can be accessed by temporarily removing drywall on the garage side. If so, suggest cutting into the stack to install a 'Y' facing the garage onto which a 'P' trap, standpipe and air gap can be installed within the garage so as to discharge the water softener.
     
  3. sac02

    sac02 New Member

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    Sorry for the confusion, the 40ft number I put in the OP was my best guess at the time, from memory. Yesterday evening I whipped out the tape measure and got the 28ft number which is probably accurate within a foot or two. I updated the OP to reflect the correct 28 foot number.

    The "soil" is rock, lots of rock. Digging deeper than six inches around here is a significant task.

    So the reason for the standpipe is because it provides the air gap necessary for potable water drains? As Bannerman was also saying, when he mentioned that having the (potable) water softener drain directly connected to the sink drain trap was not acceptable?

    I don't see a standpipe in the half bath, are you basically proposing to add one? Could it be hidden in the wall, or is that a "no-no" for that type of plumbing?

    The half-bath sink is currently a pedestal type, if I really want to move the water softener drain to the guest bath and add a standpipe, will it likely require converting the sink to a cabinet? The standpipe has to be higher than the water source (faucet) though, I guess?

    Here is an updated (more accurate) diagram of the home layout. (I will also update the previous diagram.) Running a drain line to the half bath will be difficult.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. sac02

    sac02 New Member

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    Bannerman, thanks for the info. I did not see your post before hitting Post for my reply.

    Regarding the soil stack, I'm thinking there might be. I think the second floor bathroom is directly above the first floor half bath. Would the soiled water from the upstairs toilet typically drain down to share the same soil stack with the downstairs toilet below it?

    That is a long and semi-complicated run of line to trace the perimeter of the garage (around the stair nook, over the door) from softener to half bath. Could the drain line run UP into the attic space above the garage, then down to the half bath? That may be easier, from a line routing perspective.

    Are there limits for water softener drain line length? What about vertical?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  5. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    The reason for the standpipe is to provide a place to put the water. The P-trap on the standpipe keeps sewer gases from coming out of the standpipe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standpipe_(plumbing) The air gap goes atop/above the standpipe. The purpose is to prevent the softener drain from dipping into sewage, and letting that feed back into the potable water system -- as unlikely as that is. The air gap makes sure that the tube does not get close to sewage, even if the sewer system were to back up or get clogged.

    The main problem with your current system is the lack of an air gap. Once you go through the air gap, the water is no longer under pressure, so it would not then be able to pass thru a little tube.

    Bannerman's proposal is to add a standpipe with P-trap. That can be in a wall. It is common with washer hookup boxes where the drain goes. You could put that on the garage side of the wall maybe. I don't know how that interferes with the fire wall rules. Another thing you could consider is adding a laundry sink by the water heater. The softener could discharge into that, and you would have a handy garage utility sink. That is more work than adding a standpipe, since you would need to bring water through the walls too.

    Simplest would be open the wall, tee off an existing drain, and put an AAV in the garage. You would restore the fire-resistant drywall. Following the AAV you would have the the P-trap and standpipe in the garage. Then you would put an air gap at the top of the standpipe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  6. sac02

    sac02 New Member

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    Going through all of this, I had wondered to myself (didn't post it here, obviously) if that might be an option. I do a lot of work in the garage (automotive hobby) and a laundry/ slop sink is something I've wanted for a while now. Maybe this will be a decent oportunity to justify it.
     
  7. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Just my opinion but... do not use an AAV in a living space. Many municipalities no longer allow them. They work great but... do not buy a cheap one, spend the extra $10 dollars if you get one and be sure to replace it every 5-10 years if it is located in an area that has regular human contact. I have seen many of these devices fail due to simple neglect (never changed) to bugs blocking the seating surface. We have even tried using them as vacuum breaks for drain lines that go down below the softener... don't... total fail.
     
  8. JRC3

    JRC3 Member

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    Where to drain?
     
  9. sac02

    sac02 New Member

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    I dunno.
     
  10. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    I think the plan would be to open the garage wall behind the lav. See if the drain could be added in while adding re-vents as needed. I would guess the extra problem would be that after the standpipe joins in, the toilet should no longer wet vented through the lav drain.
     
  11. sac02

    sac02 New Member

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    So, how big of a deal is it that the garage is 5ft below the rest of the house? I like the idea of putting in a slop sink in the garage, but any/all fixtures in the house are 5ft above the garage level where the slop sink would be installed. I'm not sure how to make the sink drain uphill.
     
  12. JRC3

    JRC3 Member

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    Cool part is that you're in a garage so if anything malfunctioned the damage would be minimal at the most. I guess what I'm getting at is the unit doesn't have to be a big fancy one.

    http://www.homedepot.com/p/Superior...Remote-Sink-Drain-Pump-System-92072/206496580

    http://www.homedepot.com/p/AquaPro-1-3-HP-Utility-Sink-Pump-55011-7/206852252
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2017
  13. sac02

    sac02 New Member

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    Use a pump to get the sink's drain water up to the house level, neat. I was wondering if something like that would work, but figured I was going off into my redneck engineering zone, didn't realize it might be standard practice.

    But at this point the sink install is entirely optional it seems. Either with or without the sink I would have to access the halfbath plumbing through the garage wall. Nothing about that sink install makes the water softener drain line install easier (per my fallible understanding). I could just do the WS drain by itself if I wanted minimal cost, or if I wanted the garage sink it would be a"good oportunity" but it wouldn't actually improve or simplify the WS drain line install, right?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  14. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    5 ft? I was not picturing that. That also means that the plumbing for the vents would be way up too. High ceiling in the garage.

    I don't know that line labeled vent in JRC's picture cannot be run like shown. Maybe he missed seeing that in the picture I think. The vent may actually would need to hook in to the vent system much higher. Maybe there is an exception for a laundry tub where you don't need a sealed sump. I am not sure

    When you think you have a plan that you might go with, you could describe that in a post in the plumbing forum.

    Right.
     
  15. JRC3

    JRC3 Member

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    I saw that vent like that in other pics as well. Maybe the check-valve in the line to the sewer has something to do with it. Others had ball valves on that line too. IDK, the real plumbers will know best.
     
  16. sac02

    sac02 New Member

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    OK, so back to water softeners, lol...

    80k grain for max efficiency - check.
    Traditional single tank setup - assuming I relocate the drain, which I plan to - check.

    Valve - uhh...

    I like numbers and diagnostics, so mentioned the Fleck 5800 XTR2 - but JRC3 the comment was made that the 7000 will do nearly the same diagnostics... But I thought the diagnostics were a feature of the controller (mechanical, SXT, XTR2, XT, NXT...) and not the valve (5600, 5800, 7000, 9100...). Are certain controllers only used for certain valves?

    Another thing I like is future-proof-ness and user-servicability.

    I thought that I read the 7000 been discontinued by Fleck, and any current sales are just cleaning out old stock - is that true? I'm not sure I like the idea of buying a discontinued product if I have a comparable alternative.

    I am leaning towards Fleck because it seems to be the most user-servicable as far as things like parts availability and DIY-knowledgebase (correct me if I'm wrong). But I also read somewhere (on this board) that Fleck has been trending towards non-direct-to-user sales model (only sales through authorized distributors). Is this going to be an issue in 5 or 10 years when/if I need to rebuild the unit?
     
  17. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    The Fleck 7000 was discontinued a while back. We are down to our last hundred or so and these will be gone soon. The 5810, like the Clack... parts are not that difficult to find at a reasonable price.

    Many higher end brands of components are going away from online sales since these components often find themselves attached to garbage components. Also the lack of technical support by the companies selling them. Diapers are fine for online sales, highly complex systems that have the potential to create very high liability issues... no to so good.

    The XTR2 has extensive diagnostics and many great features. If you are into tech, then it is a great item, otherwise the SXT is excellent.
     
  18. sac02

    sac02 New Member

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    I am into tech. I'm a QC Engineer for a major OEM (you can do the legwork yourself to figure out which one based on my location) and I speak fluent diagnostics, statistics, analytics, etc, lol. In fact I enjoy that stuff. In the last two years I've officially added "electronics tinkering" to my list of hobbies, though I'm still quite the amateur when it comes to programming /coding.

    Is there any reason I should avoid the 5800XTR2?

    Edit: I can't figure out the difference between the 5800, 5810, and 5812.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  19. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    5800 is technically a 3/4" valve and uses the old 5600 type bypasses. It has a far higher flow rate than the 5600 series.
    5810 is a 1" valve that uses a newer high flow bypass and modern connectors.
    5812 is a 1-1/4" valve and has been designed to accommodate some major future modifications internally.
    The 5800 has 3 timers available, LXT (Ultra simple, ultra efficient) SXT (highly programmable) and XTR2 (top of the line, USB interface, and also designed with a lot of future expansion capability)
    The 5810 and 5812 have the SXT and XTR2 available, no LXT.

    I prefer the 5810, with the updated bypass/connectors, ultra high flow rates, and simple design, it is probably our best seller.
     
  20. sac02

    sac02 New Member

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    If the plumbing from my house going to the current softener is 3/4" (I assume I can use some sort of adapter to go from 3/4" home plumbing to 1" 5810 inlet), will I get the benefits of the higher flow, or is the 3/4" home plumbing a bottleneck? Or am I misunderstanding your description of the "high flow bypass" - does the higher flow rate only apply when the equipment is in bypass mode?

    The 5800/10/12 seems to be a model that Fleck has not made available for direct-to-consumer sales, will I have problems getting parts for this model if I need them?

    Edit: attached are some pictures of the garage (excuse the mess, please).

    1. Half-bath in question. Pedestal sink (with visible plumbing I had not previously noticed until really looking at it). Toilet plumbing is under floor / in wall I guess.

    2. I included this crappy pic because I realized I didn't have a good way to illustrate where the half-bath was - it is to the imediate right of where I am standing to take this pic.

    3. Looking back towards the door I was standing in for picture 2 above. The half-bath is directly behind the white plastic shelves. The home's first floor, floor level is the top of the stairs (alternately, the bottom of the garage drywall). So the toilet in the half-bath is sitting at about the height of the red rake handle.

    4. Crappy panoramic of the rear wall of the garage. Plumbing a drain line around the perimiter of the garage would be a PITA - behind the lumber shelves, through the divider wall and water heater closet, into the nook behind the toolbox, around the outcropping behind the workbench, around the stairs and over the door, over the river and though the woods...

    Can I run a drain line straight up the wall by the softener into the attic and straight back down the other side to the bath plumbing? The attic space above the garage is totally open and easy access, but it is high - the garage has 13ft ceilings. Can the water softener pump the drain water up 8 or 10 feet?

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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
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