HVAC Mini Split Systems

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OFDPOS

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Hello , tried a search and either didn't type in right or there was no posts on them ?
Looking at redoing the HVAC system in our home.
It has the original system from 1984. The ducting in the attic has had the old grey ducting somewhat wrapped with insulation.
Our house is 1389 sq ft 3 bed 2 bath single story . Both heat and a/c electric , do have access to switch heat to gas if going with non mini split system.

Had a couple quotes so far for a new system with all new ducting .
Another HVAC comp quote suggested I go with a Fujitsu Mini Split System.

Both quotes came in within a $1000.00 of each other.
With the Mini Split System having 3 units run off one outdoor unit.

Anybody have a Mini Split System or know much about them.
Besides the two obvious ;
Pros - No duct work / leakage much quieter
Cons- large wall mount unit must stay on top of cleaning the filter etc ...
 

Dana

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There are floor mount cassettes, ceiling cassettes, mini-duct cassettes, etc that can all work with a multi-split compressor. It doesn't have to be high-wall coils. The most important thing is to size the heads/cassettes with their actual loads, something which very few contractors take the time (or even under stand how) to calculate. If you size it right it will be ultra-efficient, ultra quiet and very nice. If you blow it by a lot it can be an exepensive lesson.

Run a room-by-room load calculation using the most aggressive assumptions realistically possible on air tightness and R-values using this online load tool. Resist the urge to under-shoot R-values, eg: If it's a 2x4 wall, unless you KNOW it has R11 batts, assume they are R13s or better.

Your location and the actual Fujistu equipment proposed would be useful. The cold-climate versions are more efficient and have more capacity than the standard versions, which would be important in some parts of CA than others.

I don't have a mini-split system in my own home (but will once the ludicrously oversized centeral air croaks- DIE, BEAST, DIE!! :) ), but I have specified them for dozens of people, most of whom are still talking to me (even some of my relatives who should know better. ;))

The smallest 3 zone Fujitsu is a 2-tonner, and probably oversized for your actual loads. You might do better with a 1.5 ton 2-zone system runing a slim-duct cassette to server 2-4 doored off rooms, and a high wall or floor unit serving the more open area. But this may take some analysis of the floor plan along with the room load numbers. Most mini-split installers really don't have time for optimizing it- they would rather just install a head per room and move on.

There are whole houses your size in CA heated and cooled by a single 1.5 ton mini-ducted Fujitsu mini-split, with the ducts indoors rather than above the insulation in the attic. This installation in Berkeley is one such example:

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The air handler here is mounted vertically- the wrapped box in the middle above the return grille and below the fatter plenum from which the flex ducts are run. Note they soffited the duct run going down the hall, but the other three are going directly to rooms. The whole thing takes up about 7-square feet of floor area, wall framing for that "utility closet" included.

But mini-duct cassettes can also be installed horizontally just below ceiling level of a closet to serve multiple adjacent spaces with short duct runs without the big build-out.

The advantage to going with a single-zone mini-split is that it will modulate up/down with the load very smoothly, with VERY stable room temperatures. With multi-zone systems the minimum modulation levels are about twice as high with a single zone, and the modulation is in 1/4 ton chunks up/down only modulating the outdoor compressor, not the individual heads/cassettes. The smoother load tracking gives the single zone units both an efficiency and comfort edge over their multi-zone cousins. The 1.5 ton slim ducted version can drop back to 3100 BTU/hr in both heating and cooling modes and ramps smoothly up/down with load. But the tri-zone AOU18RLXFZ can only dial back to 6800 BTU/hr heating/6100 BTU/hr cooling and only changes output in steps. If your whole house cooling load is 12000 BTU/hr (it really could be that low could be higher or lowe too), most of the time the individual zones on a tri-zone will be cycling on/off even under design conditions, whereas the 1.5 ton single zone would run almost constantly, usually at a very low, hyper-efficient modulation level.

Mitsubishi has some truly great single-zone high wall units in both half-ton (FH06NA) and 3/4 ton (FH09NA) sizes either of which can modulate down to 1600 BTU/hr heating, 1700 BTU/hr cooling. Even three of those can dial back to a lower total modulation level than any 3-zone multi-split. Compared to a half ton or 3/4 ton head that can't go lower than 6800 BTU/hr when married to a multi-split compressor it's like night and oranges, not even on the same comfort axis, despite being related technology. The multi-split solution isn't bad when sized right, but a right sized fully modulating single zone is just plain better, and often cheaper to install. (I see that all the time in my area- 3-zone multis quoted at several thousand more than three singles.) The down side of separate single zone units is that you have multiple outdoor units. The up-side is that you can turn one or more completely off when the loads are low.

Whatever. Get a good ball-park on the actual room-by-room load numbers first.
 

OFDPOS

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Thanks for the info.
As for the Fujitsu , they suggested running the AOU24RLXFZ OR AOU36RLXF1 two wall units ASU7,9,12RLF1 and one Slim Duct ARU7,9,12RLF .

One wall unit in the vaulted living/dining room / kitchen .
Second wall unit in the master bedroom /master bathroom.
Slim duct to feed 2 bedrooms and bathroom .

Live in the Sacramento area , front of house faces South with the sun hitting the front living room morning then garage rest of day to late afternoon were the sun hits the side of the house (bedroom attached to garage and master bedroom rear corner)

Still waiting on the final quote .

I'll click on the clicky you posted and see what I can find out on that.

Thanks again for the reply !
 

Dana

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The 24RLXFZ is probably oversized for the whole house load unless you have a lot of west facing window.

The 36RLXF1 is probably more than 2x oversized. Three tons of compressor for a <1500' house? Really? That can cool/heat an uninsulated tarpaper shack with single pane windows in your climate!

They don't seem to specify which size ARU slim-duct cassette, just the description "...one Slim Duct ARU7,9,12RLF..."? They don't specify which high wall units either?

The smallest-in-class ARU7 slim duct cassette could heat my two first floor bedrooms AND the bathroom with margin to spare at -15F outside if married to one of their cold-climate multi-splits. A single ARU12 can probably heat and cool your whole house if married to an 12RLFC compressor. With no parasitic load from ducts in the attic your cooling load is likely to come in around 12,000 BTU/hr, the 12RLFCD can deliver 13,600. Your design heat load is probably around 13,000 BTU/hr @ 32F (Sacramento's 99the percentile temperature bin), the 12RLFCD can deliver 16,000 BTU/hr.

It's just hard to get the right fit without calculating the loads- most installers just oversize the hell out of it and call it a day, no math required. It will cool and heat the place (probably more comfortably than the oversized beast using the ducts in the attic), but that's not the same as optimal.

Figure out the room by room loads, which would tell you what it takes, then tell THEM what to install. That seems to be the only way to get right-sized equipment in my area too. Most installer generated proposals for this type of equipment I see look insane through any lens other than "the installer is behind on his boat payments" perspective, though maybe one out of 5 hits pretty close to the mark.
 

Jacobsond

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We put in panasonic mini split heatpumps when we needed to upgrade our AC. The house has baseboard heat so no ductwork. These things are great. I opted for 2 inside heads and 2 outside units. While cooling or heating is not as even as you could get with vents in each room they do a good job. Since they are heatpumps it has cut my propane use by more than 1/3.
 

Dana

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We put in panasonic mini split heatpumps when we needed to upgrade our AC. The house has baseboard heat so no ductwork. These things are great. I opted for 2 inside heads and 2 outside units. While cooling or heating is not as even as you could get with vents in each room they do a good job. Since they are heatpumps it has cut my propane use by more than 1/3.

With a Fujitsu or Mitsubishi cold climate versions you could probably cut propane use by more than 2/3. The compressor technology used in those mini-splits (and not used in your Panasonic mini splits) still has them delivering decent amounts of heat at reasonable efficiency at -10F and colder. The cold climate mini-splits also have automatic management of a pan heater to keep defrost ice from building up in the bottom pan of the outdoor unit during extensive cold weather use. They're not super cheap, but they are effective, and in most markets will pay for themselves in propane savings in under 5 years. That varies a lot, depending on your local electricity & propane pricing, of course.
 

OFDPOS

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Thanks for the reply.
Been looking at the load calculation clicky you posted.
There's a few items on there that is confusing since I don't know the HVAC lingo ...

Any chance of talking with you offline , don't see where I can private message you ?
 

Mage182

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Thanks for the reply.
Been looking at the load calculation clicky you posted.
There's a few items on there that is confusing since I don't know the HVAC lingo ...

Any chance of talking with you offline , don't see where I can private message you ?

Can you post a basic layout of the floor plan of your house and where you're planning on putting the heads/duct outputs? I'm working through the process of system design now in my expanded cape and am worried about microzoning with oversized output.
 

Dana

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Thanks for the reply.
Been looking at the load calculation clicky you posted.
There's a few items on there that is confusing since I don't know the HVAC lingo ...

Any chance of talking with you offline , don't see where I can private message you ?

If you click on the name link under the avatar on the left the pop-up has a "Start a Conversation" link for PMing on this site.
 
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