How to Size Your Water Softener 2016-11-26

[angelo polinario]

angelo polinario submitted a new resource:

How to Size Your Water Softener - How to Size Your Water Softener

How to Size Your Water Softener?

This is the formula to properly Size Your Water Softener

# of people in the House X # Gallons Water Consumption Per Person X Grains Per Gallon = Is Equal to the Number of Grains to be removed

For example:

4 People living in my House x 75 Gallons of water consumer per person (average) X The Grains in my area 10 = 3000 Grains to be removed Daily

Then You have to look at this Chart and Find the right Softener Capacity

What do your results mean?
Note:...

Read more about this resource...

 

[PumpMd]

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/water-softener-sizing-flow-rate.68892/

This will help you http://www.premierwatermn.com/water-softener-size-3/

http://www.premierwatermn.com/flow-rates-achilles-heel-water-system/

Look at the "max flow rate" and the "pipe size" on this chart
http://www.water-right.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/WR-Impression-Plus-Spec-Sheet.pdf


Single parameter
http://www.hach.com/single-parameter-test-kits/family?productCategoryId=35547009715

http://www.hach.com/single-paramete...est-kits/family?productCategoryId=35547009716

http://www.hach.com/total-hardness-test-kit-model-5-b/product?id=7640219508&callback=pf


Multiple parameters
http://www.hach.com/test-kits/multi-parameter-kits/family?productCategoryId=35547009712


Buy a total hardness test kit regardless if your on a well or city water because you don't know how the plumber ran your softener on the plumbing lines in your house. Here, the outside faucets are Raw water and everything else is soft water inside your house. If your house is old, more than likely your house was plumbed the old way and your outside faucets will be soft water.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[PumpMd]

If you need anything else, Ditttohead on the Softener Forum here will hook you up.

 

[Steve Logan]

Really helpful article thanks!

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

I dont agree with the formula to calculate the size you need for your home.....

I have found that generally its best to buy the larger 48,000 grn models over the smaller 24,000 grain units
for a number of reasons.... The main reason is they dont re-generate every second or third night and you piss a bunch of drinking water down the drain--- Also, the homeowner has to get used to hearing this noise going on in the middle of the night depending on where the unit is located it can be a BIG problem......

Using a Clack unit, we normally install the 48grn.. #10 mineral bed ...in all average situations.....
and we set it to automatically regenerate once every 14 days just to move the bed around. On average
it might regenerate once every 8 to 12 days... depending on the demand...
..
It has been very economical on water use and noise reduction.....
I have one customer we installed one for 3 years ago who is moving the unit
to a new home with him and he stated he used about 6 40 lb bags of salt last year...total..
for a family of 2... (thats cheap) My family uses about 12 bags a year.... with a family of 4....

we have found that the 64,000 grn #10 units work best in high iron well water... they take out
about 6 parts per million on Iron ..... No reason to go small on well water....

putting the tiny , wimpy 24,000 grain or 36 ,000 grain units simply waste a ton of water and in
our area we pay for both a water bill and a sewer bill...
WE see a lot of people install these cheap ass GE and Whirlpool units in their homes
and they cant understand why the 32,000 grain units wear out in their
5 bathroom homes.......

My position on this is I would rather have a 45 cal as the gun I carry versus
a small 22 cal.... The 45 kills all.......

please educate me as to where I am mistaken into what size unit we install.....

 

[Reach4]

we have found that the 64,000 grn #10 units work best in high iron well water... they take out
about 6 parts per million on Iron ..... No reason to go small on well water....

With significant iron being handled by the softener, it is usually suggested to regenerate more frequently. Gary Slusser said "If you have 2.0 ppm or more of iron, you may want to regenerate every 3-4 days." It is better to have an iron-removing backwashing filter before the softener. But if the user is willing to do extra treatments, a softener can do it. That would be a case where a 1 cubic ft, or possibly even a 0.75, softener would be the better choice. Otherwise, I agree that the 10x54 1.5 cubic ft softener is usually the better choice.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

With significant iron being handled by the softener, it is usually suggested to regenerate more frequently. Gary Slusser said "If you have 2.0 ppm or more of iron, you may want to regenerate every 3-4 days." It is better to have an iron-removing backwashing filter before the softener. But if the user is willing to do extra treatments, a softener can do it. That would be a case where a 1 cubic ft, or possibly even a 0.75, softener would be the better choice. Otherwise, I agree that the 10x54 1.5 cubic ft softener is usually the better choice.

thanks for your input.... A lot of people would rather just let the softener take out the iron in the well
water versus getting an iron filter behind the softener..... We have just installed the common 48,000 grn
unit in well water before where the iron was only mild and it has worked great .....

 

[PumpMd]

The articles that I posted was also about not exceeded the flow rates that the softener can handle on your "Peek gpm flow rate demand". As it would be clog city for your water softener in short time depending on your water quality and how often your regenerating your water softener from your lack of capacity.

Sizing your filters to handle your "GPM flow rate demand" is recommend. This is so they don't cause "flow restrictions" and "PSI losses" to add on top to your PSI losses from the water softener as well. How good is your well driller at keeping sediment from being pumped through the submersible pump to clog a properly sized filter in short time tells the tell.

What do you think your "typical" Peek flow rate demand is on a 5 bathroom house and how many people will be using water at the same time? On a well, you will need a submersible pump to handle your peek flow rate demand. A 10gpm pump isn't going to be able to handle the Peek flow rate demand on a house that size. Your going to be looking into 15-25+gpm on just the house side alone.

I could use the washing machine,dishwasher, and the toilet at the same time for my typical flow rate demand (that's if the dishwasher and washer machine were used earlier in the day by the time it's ready for the baths or showers to be taking on a 2 bathroom house with 2 kids and 2 adults). But, in a 5 bathroom home where you would typically have more people around the house,you could easily add a tub or a nice high flow rate demand shower(multiple heads) on top of my flow rate demand.

The next question would be to ask yourself "can my plumbing lines handle those high flow rate demands while keeping your psi losses to a minimum after the house valve?

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

The articles that I posted was also about not exceeded the flow rates that the softener can handle on your "Peek gpm flow rate demand". As it would be clog city for your water softener in short time depending on your water quality and how often your regenerating your water softener from your lack of capacity.

Sizing your filters to handle your "GPM flow rate demand" is recommend. This is so they don't cause "flow restrictions" and "PSI losses" to add on top to your PSI losses from the water softener as well. How good is your well driller at keeping sediment from being pumped through the submersible pump to clog a properly sized filter in short time tells the tell.

What do you think your "typical" Peek flow rate demand is on a 5 bathroom house and how many people will be using water at the same time? On a well, you will need a submersible pump to handle your peek flow rate demand. A 10gpm pump isn't going to be able to handle the Peek flow rate demand on a house that size. Your going to be looking into 15-25+gpm on just the house side alone.

I could use the washing machine,dishwasher, and the toilet at the same time for my typical flow rate demand (that's if the dishwasher and washer machine were used earlier in the day by the time it's ready for the baths or showers to be taking on a 2 bathroom house with 2 kids and 2 adults). But, in a 5 bathroom home where you would typically have more people around the house,you could easily add a tub or a nice high flow rate demand shower(multiple heads) on top of my flow rate demand.

The next question would be to ask yourself "can my plumbing lines handle those high flow rate demands while keeping your psi losses to a minimum after the house valve?

Keep talking, its a good topic to think about when fooling with a system on a well.. In our city most homes are on
city water and it ranges from about 60 psi up to 145psi depending on where you are in the city.... Average is probably 90..

therefore we dont have a problem with peak demand.
You flush some toilets and you think they are gonna take off flying off the floor...

In your average home peak demand is never an issue....
anything over a 4 bathroom home will probably need at least a one inch well service line...


I presently have a well system that has 30 parts hard water and over 7ppm iron... It would cost them about 10k to get city water bored across the 4 lane street... So I got to get them a new water softener and iron filter....
Its actually pretty simple because its only a one bathroom home one person ..


Peak demand only concerns me with tankless water heaters.... they are and always will be problems when
one or more fixtures are run at the same time.....



..

.


I do have a

 

[PumpMd]

Nothing smaller than a 1" line gets install here. That means Pex pipe should be 1 1/4" on any well before the house valve. But, you can get away with using 1" Pex pipe by adjusting your pressure setting to the more typical 40-60 setting because of smaller pipe being used after the house valve.

Look at the "max flow rate" and the "pipe size" on this chart
http://www.water-right.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/WR-Impression-Plus-Spec-Sheet.pdf

Now compare those numbers on those smaller GE water softeners you were talking about.
http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-product-search?Ntt=ge+24,000+grain+water+softener&x=14&y=12

On city water your going to be looking at the max PSI the water softener can handle before you start blowing the seals out. PRV will be installed for that problem. Higher pressure on a unlimited amount water will crate high flow velocities through the pipe, to force more water flow through a small pipe. What are your typical peek flow rates in a house on city water?

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

Nothing smaller than a 1" line gets install here. That means Pex pipe should be 1 1/4" on any well before the house valve. But, you can get away with using 1" Pex pipe by adjusting your pressure setting to the more typical 40-60 setting because of smaller pipe being used after the house valve.

Look at the "max flow rate" and the "pipe size" on this chart
http://www.water-right.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/WR-Impression-Plus-Spec-Sheet.pdf

Now compare those numbers on those smaller GE water softeners you were talking about.
http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-product-search?Ntt=ge+24,000+grain+water+softener&x=14&y=12

On city water your going to be looking at the max PSI the water softener can handle before you start blowing the seals out. PRV will be installed for that problem. Higher pressure on a unlimited amount water will crate high flow velocities through the pipe, to force more water flow through a small pipe. What are your typical peek flow rates in a house on city water?[/QUOTE]


thanks for the info..
I have not got a clue as to what the peak flow rates are on indpls city water...
I know that the pressure peaks extremely high during the down times late at night...

I cant talk folks into installing the prv valves even when you explain to them
I got one customer right now with 101psi in their home at about noon , theirneighbors
are hitting 125..... I explain to them they will probably blow out that Autotrol water softener
in a few years down the road.... and they are on their third water heater.....
They dont seem to care...


The Autotrol is terrible for high water pressures
The CLACK seems to handle anything you throw at it....

 

[PumpMd]

How often do you come across pinhole leaks in copper pipe with high pressures on them and you have checked the PH of the water?

a couple of other threads you might find useful
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/461989/

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/488631/

 

[PumpMd]

I cant talk folks into installing the prv valves even when you explain to them

You can have the same problems when your trying to tell them they're short cycling their 10gpm submersible pump on a 20gal pressure tank. They tell me "it's been like that 20+yrs". Hard to sell them a 44gal pressure tank even after I show them Franklin wants 1min on and 1min off for proper cooling on a 4" submersible motor. Adjusting your pressure settings to a higher pressure setting to accommodate for the loss in flow and psi losses (elevation psi losses as well), your going have less gals of drawdown out your pressure tank to give you even less of a proper runtime.

When your well driller doesn't install the casing big enough to install a flow sleeve in the first place. It's up to the well pump installer to set the submersible pump where it's going to have proper flow going across the motor and through the pump. Going off your well log from the well drillers here, they will tell you at what depth your bottom perforation is set at. 20'- 40' above the bottom perf is where you want to set your submersible pump for proper cooling. This is best cooling you can do for a submersible pump to where it's just the same as using a flow sleeve on a top feeding well when your submersible pump is set below the bottom perf.

 

[PumpMd]

It's not hard to adjust a light duty pressure switch to the highest recommend PSI setting 50-70 or your going to need a heavy duty pressure switch for higher PSI settings. If, your submersible pump can supply enough pressure for those higher pressure settings. But, it can also cause you another problem than just your pressure tank drawdown for you proper runtime. If, your static water level drops on long term water usage(outside long term water needs on our frost proof hydrants,rather than using the low flow rates you get on the ones on the outside of your house)to the point where you struggle your submersible pump to kick off pressure. I like to make sure your submersible pump can supply you with your flow rate and pressure needs all the way down to the submersible pump. 5-7gpm submersible pumps are no longer being used because they produce low gpm flow rates to cause wear damage at deep depths to water and they will have problems with using a pumptec that needs to sense a dry well (where 5-7gpm submersible pumps have problems with keeping the submersible pump running at low gpm flow rates).​

On my own well, my 3/4hp 10gpm submersible pump stays running when the static water level drops the pump at 145'. But, I don't produce a low flow rate or pump my well dry to need a pumptec. If, I was to raise my pressure on this system I would need a stronger hp motor for my outside watering needs because my submersible pump would struggle to build pressure when I'm done using water outside. This will cause premature submersible pump failure due to the wear damage from the lack of proper gpm water flow going across the motor and through the pump when it's struggling to build pressure. Your static water level is recovering at this same time to where it can finally build enough pressure to your kick off pressure setting on the pressure switch.

 

[Keith Frank]

Hey, I was helped by my neighbor to size my water softener for the apartment. But now I see that I could have gone for a bigger size of the water softnener? Do you think that the size of the water softener affects the quality of water for the house?

 

[Reach4]

Hey, I was helped by my neighbor to size my water softener for the apartment. But now I see that I could have gone for a bigger size of the water softnener? Do you think that the size of the water softener affects the quality of water for the house?

Care to explain your question? Are you for real? I have doubts.

 

[Keith Frank]

Care to explain your question? Are you for real? I have doubts.

Hey. So we are a family of 4, and as per my neighbor's calculations, we could go for a small water softener (30,000 grain unit). Now, after reading this thread plus a couple of posts, I 've realized that maybe it would be smarter to go for a 48 K one, not to overdrive the smaller unit.

 

[Reach4]

Hey. So we are a family of 4, and as per my neighbor's calculations, we could go for a small water softener (30,000 grain unit). Now, after reading this thread plus a couple of posts, I 've realized that maybe it would be smarter to go for a 48 K one, not to overdrive the smaller unit.

Unless you are space limited, there is little reason to go for a tank smaller than 54x10 "48k" with 1.5 cuft of resin. That will get you about 32k grains of softening with reasonable programming. Never do math with the "48000" number.